Obama '08?

maporsche wrote:

I recommend this article (about racism).

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7955740/Am-I-supposed-to-be-mad-about-LeBron?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002

A handbook. Good idea.

Edit: Hope Rev. Wright doesn't write it Laughing

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nappyheadedhohoho, and on the DOD and a biological weapon that would attack and destroy the human immune system you no comment. I think I understand why.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Those who have never experienced the congregational system sometimes do have a difficult time grasping the concept.

Well, I studied church law at university, and quite a few of my history (university) exams were church history related as well :wink:

Good. Then you know that I know what I'm talking about when I describe polity in any church with a congregational form of government.

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Yes, and when you will know that it's not a fully congregational form of government.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Yes, and when you will know that it's not a fully congregational form of government.

Yes it is a fully congregational form of government. A voluntary affiliation with a larger group in no way relinquishes the congregational polity of the local congregation. A congregational congregation owns its own property and other physical assets--the larger group has no part of these. It can ordain its own ministers and the larger group cannot deny the local congregation that right. It can remove itself from any affiliation with the larger group by a simple vote of the congregation. It can use any doctrine, theology, curriculum, Bible translation, or form of worship it chooses and the larger group has no say in any of that. It incorporates as its own entity, elects its own leadership, and appoints whomever it wants to do whatever and the larger group has no say in any of that either.

The only difference between a UCC congregation and a local neighborhood church that is unaffiliated with anybody is that the UCC congregation has a voluntary cooperative relationship with a larger body of Christians providing a means to share fellowship, educational opportunities, and resources. And that's it.

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real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
real life wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
Does Obama have a choice about either of the following?

a) his race?
b) what any media source writes about him?

Did Obama have a choice where he went to church for 20 years?

Did he have a choice with whom to associate as his 'close friend, advisor and mentor' ?

Following my 2 questions with two more questions is a technique that only works of the answers are the same.

yes he could choose his church.
yes he could choose his mentor(s).

This is a lame way to avoid the answers to the questions I asked in the context of Tico's article.

No he can't choose his race.
no he can't choose what people write about him.

The idea that Obama controls what media surrounds him is ridiculous. The press has been accusing him of using the race cad almost exclusively yet they choose to publish stories that only highlight his race?

Someone certainly is playing the race card: The media.

T
K
O

No one, including the media, is criticizing Obama for BEING black, TKO.

Get your head out of the straw.

The criticism is for his long term association and cozy relationships with racists.

If online debate was archery, you just shot yourself in the foot. You miss.

My point is that the coverage given to Obama is usually about race as opposed to his other dimentions. It sells papers, it's get's viewers, but it's not something Obama controls. The race card is being played by the media, not Obama.

Maybe you should add some Ginko into your diet, or arsenic. Either way your debate skills improve.

T
K
O

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They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

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Exactly right. And that's a charitible estimation of their motives.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

You mean like the Bush supporter threads where we were constantly having to put up with all the liberal twits trolling the thread to rile the conservatives?

Sucks when your **** comes back at ya, huh?

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Too funny McG. You are right of course, at least on that point.

Many of these guys cannot see the hypocrisy they are displaying. Here is yet another example.

I love how one of their new tactics is to disregard a post about Obama from conservitives, just because a conservitive posted it. Nevermind that there are at least a few liberals that have posted similar statements that they've also ignored.

I encourage you to save these last two posts from Cyclops and Snood and simply quote back to them their statements everytime they post on a topic on the right. Especially if they "never had the intentions of voting for the guy". Too funny.

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maporsche wrote:

Many of these guys cannot see the hypocrisy they are displaying. Here is yet another example.

I love how one of their new tactics is to disregard a post about Obama from conservitives, just because a conservitive posted it. Nevermind that there are at least a few liberals that have posted similar statements that they've also ignored.

Sooo.... it's hypocritical to disregard posts about Obama from conservatives just because they're conservatives, especially if you're also disregarding posts about Obama from liberals...?

Is that what you're saying here?

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snood wrote: Exactly right. And that's a charitible estimation of their motives.

Their motives are obvious; it's just that their concerns and issues are elementary; mostly has to do with race, church, and what they perceive to be important to a very small minority of the people of this world.. Most others have lived past through "these" issues.

How about getting back to the important issues of our day?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Those who have never experienced the congregational system sometimes do have a difficult time grasping the concept.

Well, I studied church law at university, and quite a few of my history (university) exams were church history related as well :wink:

I never studied "church law." Sounds fascinating.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2389/spanishinq4ko.jpg

[/quote]

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McGentrix wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

You mean like the Bush supporter threads where we were constantly having to put up with all the liberal twits trolling the thread to rile the conservatives?

Sucks when your **** comes back at ya, huh?

Damn straight, McG.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5652/applauseuo2.gif

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McGentrix wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

You mean like the Bush supporter threads where we were constantly having to put up with all the liberal twits trolling the thread to rile the conservatives?

Sucks when your **** comes back at ya, huh?

Slander about someone else other than Obama washes off easier than facts about a failed President. I don't envy you.

Do your worst trolls. It really doesn't matter.

T
K
O

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This racist charge against Wright is just utter horseshit. At worst, he mway have siad some things that might to some people be construed as racist. But if every white person (or black person for that matter) who said something racist was deemed a racist, most all of us would be considered racists. As far as I am concerned, if wingnuts like McG and surreal life want to hold an opinon that Wright is a racist. Fine. That is their opinion. But don't claim that the media is portraying him as such or even suggest that that is the mainstream view.

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Diest TKO wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

You mean like the Bush supporter threads where we were constantly having to put up with all the liberal twits trolling the thread to rile the conservatives?

Sucks when your **** comes back at ya, huh?

Slander about someone else other than Obama washes off easier than facts about a failed President. I don't envy you.

Do your worst trolls. It really doesn't matter.

T
K
O

The liberals here have never trolled a forum like these kooks have on the Wright issue. It is just the same crap ad infinitum.

And no, it doesn't matter but it is annoying when a thread titled Obama 08 is spammed with the same comments over and over again for days.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

They never will, TKO, because the point is not to have a fair debate, or even a discussion. The point is to Troll up the thread as much as possible, to rile the Libs to the greatest possible extent.

Cycloptichorn

Ever notice that is generally the wingnuts who engage in schadenfreude?

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McCain and the Moonies

The Moonies and McCain's Main Man
By: David Neiwert Wednesday March 26, 2008 1:30 pm

Online Videos by Veoh.com
Speaking of Charlie Black ...

I guess we all know now that the media get all worked up about some presidential candidates who have dealings with religious figures deemed "anti-American" and "hateful" -- but not all of them. If it's a black pastor at a church attended by a Democrat, well, they're on that like stink on ****. If, on the other hand, it's a Republican candidate who embraces apocalyptic nutcases and gay-bashing extremists, well, the very scent seems to make them faint.

The same principle is at work regarding the media's allergy to reporting on the way Republicans and the Moonies have their hands so deeply into each others' pockets that they're making their coins jingle. Of course, as John Gorenfeld explores in detail in his new book, Bad Moon Rising: How Reverend Moon Created the Washington Times, Seduced the Religious Right, and Built an American Kingdom, this has been going on a long time. There was a brief exception back in 2004 -- when Moon held his coronation as the "King of America" in the Senate Dirksen Building.

So we can only assume that they'll likely ignore the revelations in Gorenfeld's book that none other than uber-lobbyist Charlie Black -- not just McCain's "chief political adviser" but a right-hand man for the Bush clan as well -- played a role in making that coronation happen.

According to Gorenfeld, Black admitted to helping invite people to attend the coronation. And he's listed as a sponsor in the coronation's printed program.

You recall what happened at that event: A number of congressional figures, including at least one Democrat, Danny Davis of Illinois, participated in a ceremony in which Moon was crowned "King of America" and his place as the new Messiah rather officiously confirmed. The ceremony declared "the era of the Eternal Peace Kingdom, one global family under God." Immediately afterward, Moon confirmed to the participants that he was consulting with great leaders of the past in the spirit world: "The five great saints [Jesus, Confucius, Buddha, Mohammad, and Shankara] and many other leaders of the spirit world, including even Communist leaders such as Marx and Lenin, who committed all manner of barbarity and murder on earth, and dictators such as Hitler and Stalin, have found strength in my teachings, mended their ways and been reborn as new persons."

Gorenfeld had an e-mail exchange with Black about his role in the affair:

Before the crowning became a scandal, I e-mailed Black questions about his role. "I lent my name and sent invitations to a few friends," he replied. "Unfortunately, I had a conflict and couldn't go to the event." Was it a common kind of "event"? Black said, "I don't know if it is annaul, but they have done similar events. I don't know Reverend Moon, but work with the management of the Washington Times and their foundation occasionally on conservative causes. I think the dinner committee list included a number of us 'secular' conservatives."

McCain's "chief political adviser" is deeply connected inside the Beltway powerhouse. [More here.] A Washington Post piece on the lobbyists inside McCain's campaign notes:

His chief political adviser, Charles R. Black Jr., is chairman of one of Washington's lobbying powerhouses, BKSH and Associates, which has represented AT&T, Alcoa, JPMorgan and U.S. Airways.

[More on BKSH here.]

And of course, it's helpful to recall the kinds of things that Moon has said which seem not to bother conservatives in the least:

Quote:

The whole world is in my hand, and I will conquer and subjugate the world. I will go beyond the boundary of the U.S., opening up the toll gate, reaching out to the end of the world. I will go forward, piercing through everything ...

When we are in our battle against the whole nation of the U.S. -- if you are truly in love with this nation, and if you love this nation more than anyone else, this nation will come into God's possession, and Satan will have nothing to do with it. ... With that as the bullet, we can smash the whole world.

Individualism is what God hates most, and Satan likes best.

God likes the idea of a monarchy, because it removes the cycles of election after election which can obscure the focus and direction of the nation.

The whole world is in my hand, and I will conquer and subjugate the whole world.

The time will come when, without my seeking it, that my words must serve as law.

We will be able to amend laws, articles of constitution, if we wish to do so.

Telling a lie becomes a sin if you tell it to take advantage of a person, but if you tell a lie to do a good thing ... that is not a sin ... Even God tells lies very often.

I have met many famous, so-called famous, Senators and Congressmen; but to my eyes they are nothing. They are weak and helpless. We will win the battle. This is our dream, our project. But shut your mouth tight.

After the demise of communism and the destruction of democracy, all that will remain will be the True Family and True Children system, centered upon True Parents [Moon's title for himself and his wife]. That is what is happening now.

America may boast of its virtues to the world, but look, democracy is now reaching the end of its rope. People thought democracy is the final anchor of the free world, but it is reaching its end. So what is left? America has been telling the weaker nations that they have to accept democracy, forcing them to receive so-called democracy. But look at America. It is rotten, top to bottom. There is nothing to be proud of, not their way of walking or talking or thinking.

When you hear me putting America down, your ears are not pleased. But if we continue living in this hub of the satanic world, this New York-DC area, we are in the darkness.

When Clinton and his policies come into being, the first opposition must come from Christianity. But Christianity has lost its center and its hope. For that reason, they have lost their power, and that is why Clinton was allowed to win the election. It was the failure of Christianity. This nation which is supposed to be Christian has been turned into almost a model nation for Satan, losing everything precious. People are losing their own identity, losing brotherhood, losing their own parents, and losing God. This nation has really become a playground for Satan.

Apparently, you're only anti-American if you're a liberal Democrat.

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real life wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Does Obama have a choice about either of the following?

a) his race?
b) what any media source writes about him?

Did Obama have a choice where he went to church for 20 years?

Did he have a choice with whom to associate as his 'close friend, advisor and mentor' ?

When you're searching for an identity, maybe. Picture this: An interracial child, raised mostly in Hawaii, where he may/may not be a strange entity, as far as identification. You KNOW he's not white, entirely, (see high school photo with afro). He's born, while this country becomes embroiled in a civil rights struggle, from 1954-1992. (My time-line). He comes of age in 1979, (18), there's a lot still to come; see the Rodney King beating, the riot after the verdict on the cops who administered the beating, the OJ trial in '94, that verdict and the difference in how Blacks take the verdict opposed to whites and what do you have? A racial divide is what! By then, Obama is in Chicago, taking all of this in, working with the poor. Bill Clinton is in the White House battling Republicans

ALL the way from his governorship/whitewater/travelgate/the bimbo factor, (women crawling out of the woodwork, claiming to be a paramour), all while Bill Clinton cuts programs for the poor, increases taxes, but balances his budget, off the backs of the poor!

I can say what was going on at the time, because my son is the same age and was going through the same thing, except, we're Roman Catholic, have always been Catholic, while Obama, doesn't seem to have had a faith, except, what his grandparents taught him. That, isn't clear, either!
So Obama decides to join what appears to be a Baptist? Church, with a minister that teaches and speaks on issues, important to Black people, just as whites do the same, since there are no Blacks in their congregation, using "code-speak", but YOU know what He/She means!

In Black Catholic Parishes, as I have attended ALL my Black Life, Black and white priests, warn their Black brethren about riots, trials, where NOT to go, if you're in the eye of a racial storm, etc. Trust me Catholic priests of any color, since they minister the Gospel to us, TELL us, without the shouting, what NOT to do, etc. White Priests know us, live with us, baptize our children, marry us and bury us. When you are white and live amongst Black people, whatever you felt initially, dissolves away and the stereotypes, cease to exist.

What I see in this forum, is a lot of racial rhetoric, stereotyping, assumptions and accepting the sound-bytes, given by Faux News, talk show bigots, as "Gospel", you will get, the government you deserve! Posters claiming to not be bigoted, but state a bigoted case, because this is what YOU believe, rather than the truth! But it's okay! Smile in a Black person's face and try to engage them and see what you'll get. As for me, I'll be stone-faced, if approached by any of you, because where I live, you're here, too, always probing Black people about their opinions, when you don't really give a schitt! Cool

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