Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 01:57 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Obama never had cozy relationship with racists and I haven't heard anyone in the MSM even make that claim.


Except his preacher you mean, right?


Quote:
Would you kindly direct me to a quote from a respected journalist making the claim you allege. Have fun.


An interesting 2007 article from the NY Times.

Quote:
"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Mr. Wright said with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen."


Roxanne has a point, though. I've asked twice if it has really been demonstrated that Wright is a racist and haven't gotten an answer. Yet I see it asserted over and over again. As I said before, I haven't seen all of the clips, but I have not heard him say anything that was overtly racist. I thought the big stink was over the GD America bit. What exactly makes him a racist?


If it was a Hagee or a Falwell or a John McCain making these comments but substitute "white" for "black", would you not consider them racist?

"U.S. of KKK-A"

"America created AIDS to kill black people."

"Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run."

"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

These are all statements made by Jeremiah Wright. Put them into their full context, and they read exactly the same way.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 01:58 pm
ho, with a name like nappyheadedhohoho no one would be expecting you to be openminded about Wright or Obama. I see no reason for calling Wright anti-semitic. That's a Swift Boaters soundbite and nothing more. Show me one example of anti-semitism from Rev. Wright. Hagee on the other hand promotes war for a Rapture that will either convert Jews to Christ or kill them. Those are the options for Jews in Hagee's Christ's world.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

If it was a Hagee or a Falwell or a John McCain making these comments but substitute "white" for "black", would you not consider them racist?

"U.S. of KKK-A"

"America created AIDS to kill black people."

"Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run."

"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

These are all statements made by Jeremiah Wright. Put them into their full context, and they read exactly the same way.


I don't see how these indicate racism on the part of Rev. Wright. They are statements critical of the US government, with the exception of one which is pure conspiracy paranoia, and some of them are flatly true. But how exactly are they racist?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:02 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

If it was a Hagee or a Falwell or a John McCain making these comments but substitute "white" for "black", would you not consider them racist?

"U.S. of KKK-A"

"America created AIDS to kill black people."

"Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run."

"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

These are all statements made by Jeremiah Wright. Put them into their full context, and they read exactly the same way.


I don't see how these indicate racism on the part of Rev. Wright. They are statements critical of the US government, with the exception of one which is pure conspiracy paranoia, and some of them are flatly true. But how exactly are they racist?


FD is correct. With the exception of the AIDS comment, the rest of those are pretty much accurate.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:03 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Obama never had cozy relationship with racists and I haven't heard anyone in the MSM even make that claim.


Except his preacher you mean, right?


Quote:
Would you kindly direct me to a quote from a respected journalist making the claim you allege. Have fun.


An interesting 2007 article from the NY Times.

Quote:
"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Mr. Wright said with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen."


Roxanne has a point, though. I've asked twice if it has really been demonstrated that Wright is a racist and haven't gotten an answer. Yet I see it asserted over and over again. As I said before, I haven't seen all of the clips, but I have not heard him say anything that was overtly racist. I thought the big stink was over the GD America bit. What exactly makes him a racist?


Speaking only for myself, Wright seems to lay the blame for the african-american woes directly at the feet of whitey.

Some things I would consider racist, simply because if these were said about black people, it would definitely be racist.

various sources wrote:
"We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he began. "Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

Mr. Wright thundered on: "America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

His voice rising, Mr. Wright said, "We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

Concluding, Mr. Wright said: "We started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."


That being said, I feel his attitude is far more anti-America then racist. Wright doesn't seem to have a very high regard for his country, or at least the white people running it.

So, which is it? Is he a racist, or anti-American?
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:07 pm
Foxfyre, I did not miss your point. Your contention is that church leaders would not criticize a lucrative and generous church and that's why they talk nice about Trinity. That's a shallow soundbite and based on a politically motivated desire to dismiss the real reasons church leaders praise Trinity church. Which is their outreach and understanding and courage.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:07 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

If it was a Hagee or a Falwell or a John McCain making these comments but substitute "white" for "black", would you not consider them racist?

"U.S. of KKK-A"

"America created AIDS to kill black people."

"Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run."

"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

These are all statements made by Jeremiah Wright. Put them into their full context, and they read exactly the same way.


I don't see how these indicate racism on the part of Rev. Wright. They are statements critical of the US government, with the exception of one which is pure conspiracy paranoia, and some of them are flatly true. But how exactly are they racist?


You're kidding, right? No, you're probably serious. So let's just let it go at that. I think I'll save this particular post though for the next time some poor white guy is accused of blatant hateful racism for saying something far less inflammatory that these statements uttered by Jeremiah Wright.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:11 pm
McGentrix wrote:

Speaking only for myself, Wright seems to lay the blame for the african-american woes directly at the feet of whitey.


I disagree. He seems to mostly be talking about the government and the way it has been for black people. That's not the same as "whitey". When I look at what he has said I think that these are things that, if they were said in the 50s and 60s or before would be obviously true and almost inarguable. It seems to me that he just hasn't noticed that things have changed. But to fail to realize the lessening of racism in this country is not itself racist.

Quote:
Some things I would consider racist, simply because if these were said about black people, it would definitely be racist.


You make the third person on this thread who has made the substitution argument. Substituting white for black is not a test that tells us anything. To illustrate this, I used the description of a Korean-American church several pages back to show how absurd it is. If white people were saying these things about black people, it would be completely absurd and racist to the extent that it would embrace some alternative and bogus history of ours.

Quote:
various sources wrote:
"We've got more black men in prison than there are in college," he began. "Racism is alive and well. Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run Jesse [Jackson] and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body."

Mr. Wright thundered on: "America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . . . We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns, and the training of professional killers . . . We bombed Cambodia, Iraq and Nicaragua, killing women and children while trying to get public opinion turned against Castro and Ghadhafi . . . We put [Nelson] Mandela in prison and supported apartheid the whole 27 years he was there. We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."

His voice rising, Mr. Wright said, "We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic. . . . We care nothing about human life if the end justifies the means. . . ."

Concluding, Mr. Wright said: "We started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."


That being said, I feel his attitude is far more anti-America then racist. Wright doesn't seem to have a very high regard for his country, or at least the white people running it.

So, which is it? Is he a racist, or anti-American?


Neither. I'd say he's anti-government, which is not the same as being anti-American. The only thing in the section you quoted that strikes me as completely untrue is the bit about the AIDS virus. The rest has been said by many people who have not been accused of being racists. And Wright's bit on "chickens coming home to roost" was essentially the point of a book called "Blowback", whose author was also not called a racist or anti-American.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

You're kidding, right? No, you're probably serious. So let's just let it go at that. I think I'll save this particular post though for the next time some poor white guy is accused of blatant hateful racism for saying something far less inflammatory that these statements uttered by Jeremiah Wright.


How would those statements be racist if a white person said them?

Edit: And btw, you might want to go looking on that Imus thread before you go jumping into a false double standard argument with me.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:13 pm
Well, we all have our opinions and to each his own.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:18 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

You're kidding, right? No, you're probably serious. So let's just let it go at that. I think I'll save this particular post though for the next time some poor white guy is accused of blatant hateful racism for saying something far less inflammatory that these statements uttered by Jeremiah Wright.


How would those statements be racist if a white person said them?

Edit: And btw, you might want to go looking on that Imus thread before you go jumping into a false double standard argument with me.


Well let's see:

If a preacher said:
"US of NCAA-A"

"Black people created AIDS to kill white people"

"Racism was created by black people from the beginning and they keep it going to this day"

"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in black supremacy and white inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

You still wouldn't think these were racist statements?
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:20 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Well, we all have our opinions and to each his own.


In this universe, usually FACT trumps OPINION. What universe are you living in?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:20 pm
Here is something I am sure you will nod along and agree with. As liberals, this is right up your alley.

Quote:
Looking Back, Looking Around, Looking Ahead!
Looking Back

The month of May each year is the month that I look back to the Brown versus Board of Education decision that was passed in May of 1954. I was twelve years old and anxiously looking forward to turning thirteen that September. The decision meant nothing to me at first because I lived in Philadelphia. Living in Philadelphia meant that I had attended an integrated elementary school, was attending an integrated junior high school and would be attending an integrated high school.

Because my grandparents lived in Virginia, however, I understood clearly the segregation problem in the South. The Supreme Court decision about the desegregation of public schools, however, made no day-to-day difference in my twelve-year-old world in Philadelphia. I did not understand, therefore, what was really at stake, what was being won and what was being lost in that momentous decision made by the Supreme Court in May of 1954.

Looking back, however, I have come to learn some very painful lessons about that momentous decision. The first lesson I learned was that desegregation is not the same as integration.

Desegregation meant that African American children could no longer be denied the right to go to schools that were "For Whites Only." Desegregation did not mean that white children would now come to Black schools and learn our story, our history, our heritage, our legacy, our beauty and our strength!

As a matter of fact, across the years that I have been teaching graduate school (since 1975), I have tried to get my students to understand that one of the tragedies about the whole "integration era" was that African Americans did not understand what integration meant. Integration means the coming together of equals to the table.

Whites, in a culture of white supremacy, however, did not view us as equals and still do not view us as equals; so nothing from our Black or African experience was ever allowed at the table of "integration," much less invited or asked to be brought to the table.

Looking back, I saw very early on that many African Americans meant assimilation and acculturation when they used the word "integration." To integrate, however, does not mean to assimilate or to acculturate!

Looking back, moreover, I learned the difference between desegregation which was a legal issue (a political issue) and equality which is a spiritual and moral issue. Desegregation had to do with legal access. Giving African American citizens access to quality education, to healthcare, to public facilities, to equal protection under the law was one thing.

That access, incidentally, is still being blocked. It is being blocked very sophisticatedly, both in the South and in the North (up South!), with attacks upon affirmative action, with the "conservative" agenda and with policies put in place by the Republican Party, which is the Party for the "have mores."

Having legal access to schools and public accommodations, however, does not touch the deeper moral "American" problem, which is white supremacy! I owe much of my insights on this issue to Lewis Baldwin.

Dr. Lewis Baldwin, a professor of African American studies at Vanderbilt University, points out a very important truth in his analysis of George Fredrickson's monumental work in comparative history. Fredrickson compares the Apartheid in South Africa with the segregation here in the United States of America. Fredrickson's years of teaching at Northwestern produced two very important works that deal with the comparisons between the Apartheid of South Africa and the "Jim Crow" in America.

What Dr. Baldwin (a student of Fredrickson's) does is point out the importance of Fredrickson's insights. Dr. Fredrickson helps us to see that the real nature of the beast has to do with white supremacy. Baldwin prefers the term white supremacy over "racism" because it is far more accurate in describing what took place in South Africa and what still takes place in South Africa. It is also a term which puts its finger on the pulse of the reality of American thought and American practice!

"Racism," in Baldwin's opinion, is too nebulous a term. It is slippery and has many different meanings for many different people. I have even heard misguided (and ignorant) pundits like Rush Limbaugh and Tom DeLay calling Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney and other Black people racists. I have heard the term "Black racism" and I have also heard the term "reverse racism."

[Sic] ideology, the theology, the sociology, the legal structure, the educational system, the healthcare system, and the entire reality of the United States of America and South Africa!

Twelve years after Nelson Mandela is out of prison and Black South Africans control the legal structure in that country; yet, white supremacy is still in charge. It is "living large and in charge!"

Black Africans do not control the economic systems, the military or have control over the resources (the diamonds, the oil and the natural resources that were stolen by the whites who took over South Africa), and until that changes, white supremacy will still be in charge!

White supremacy is not a legal problem. It is a spiritual problem, a psychological problem and a moral problem.

White supremacy controls the economic system in America, the healthcare system in America and the educational system in America. Hurricane Katrina has pulled the blinders off of all Americans and shown us what white supremacy means at its ugly core and what it has done to the fabric of these "still-yet-to-be-United States" (to use Maya Angelou's term). That is what I see when looking back during the month of May.

Looking Around

Educating our children to the reality of white supremacy becomes crucial for African Americans and for all Americans. Educating our children is a term that I use pointedly. I do not mean "training" our children. That is a part of our problem now.

The misuse of that term ignores the fact that Africans do not control the military, the police, the legal structure or any of the means to enforce their race prejudice. To try to get misinformed whites and blacks to understand that fact is a waste of time.

You end up trying to make a blind man see something that he is physically and biologically unable to do. The use of the term "racism," therefore, makes one enter into an exercise in futility and causes you to come away from that discussion frustrated, angry and wanting to do like Langston Hughes' Jess B. Semple and smash something!

The term "white supremacy," however, is much more accurate. White supremacy undergirds the thought, the order that they might become more rounded and fully productive citizens in this culture and in this country. What we need to do, however, is go beyond training and educate our children!

We need to educate our children to the reality of white supremacy. We need to educate our children as to the difference between desegregation and equality, the difference between the legal issues and the spiritual issues; and the difference between access in this country as opposed to acceptance in this country!

We need to educate our children about the white supremacist's foundations of the educational system, the educational philosophy and the very curricula that immerses them in a culture of white supremacy from kindergarten through graduate school! We need to educate our children how to navigate the dangerous waters that lie ahead of them in this 21st century.

In navigating the waters, our children need to be aware of the shark-infested waters and the other predators that live in those waters.

Hurricane Katrina gave us some important images that are analogous to the future that our children have to learn how to navigate. When the levees in Louisiana broke alligators, crocodiles and piranha swam freely through what used to be the streets of New Orleans. That is an analogy that we need to drum into the heads of our African American children (and indeed, all children!).

In the flood waters of white supremacy that our children have to negotiate economically, educationally, culturally, socially and spiritually, there are not only sharks in those waters, there are also crocodiles, alligators and piranha!

The policies, with which we live now and against which our children will have to struggle in order to bring about "the beloved community," are policies shaped by predators. Jesus taught us that white supremacy - or the thinking that any one race is superior to any other race - is against the Will of God, who only created one race, the human race!

Looking Ahead

I look back during the month of May to assess the powerful ramifications of the Brown versus Board of Education decision and our misunderstanding of what the full import of that decision meant. I look around to assess where it is we are now in terms of the work that is cut out ahead of us as we educate our children; and I look forward with hope.

We are on the verge of launching our African-centered Christian school. The dream of that school, which we articulated in 1979, was built on hope. That hope still lives. That school has to have at its core an understanding and assessment of white supremacy as we deconstruct that reality to help our children become all that God created them to be when God made them in God's own image.

We teach with hope. It is the same hope which would not let Adam Clayton Powell, Denmark Vesey, Alexander Crummel, Harriet Tubman or Septima Clark give up. It is the same hope which motivated Martin King, Rosa Parks, Samuel DeWitt Proctor, Coretta Scott King, Harry Belafonte and Mary Henderson Wright. I look forward with hope.

We lay a foundation, deconstructing the household of white supremacy with tools that are not the master's tools. We lay that foundation with hope. We deconstruct the vicious and demonic ideology of white supremacy with hope. Our hope is not built on faith-based dollars, empty liberal promises or veiled hate-filled preachments of the so-called conservatives. Our hope is built on Him who came in the flesh to set us free.



I will save the source for now though I am sure you can google it easy enough. But for now, read it and give me your initial reactions.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:23 pm
"Wright doesn't seem to have a very high regard for his country". Or Wright doesn't seem to have a very high regard for what his country has done and is doing. Quite rightly. As MLK said, " the greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my country". Vietnam and Iraq are more than enough proof of the evils of American foreign policy. All Wright's accusations have evidence enough behind them including the one that seems to be the hardest for people to look into, AIDS. If America had not appropriated money to build a biological weapon that would attack and destroy the human immune system the charge that AIDS was man made would have no backing. But the DOD did express a desire to create such a weapon and Congress did appropriate money for it. You cant wish away the Congressional record. It does seem that blacks are less willing to wish it away than whites and that is due more to their history in America than anything else. They've tasted much more Bitter Fruit throughout American history.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:24 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Well let's see:

If a white preacher said:
"US of NCAA-A"


Shocked I think you meant NAACP? Are you honestly equating the KKK with that organization? How many white people did they lynch?

Quote:
"Black people created AIDS to kill white people"


And here you're substituting black people for the US Government. Does that mean that you think that the US Government is in reality equivalent to white people? Do tell.

Quote:
"Racism was created by black people from the beginning and they keep it going to this day"


This also is not equivalent to what Wright said. He didn't say white people created racism, though it is obviously true that some white people did.

Quote:
"We (America) are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in black supremacy and white inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"


Flies in the face of basic facts and our history and smacks of racial paranoia, but not on its face racist.

Quote:
You still wouldn't think these were racist statements?


I don't think they're equivalent and no, I don't think most of them are racist.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:26 pm
Another take on Jeremiah Wright. I recommend it though I haven't finished it myself.

http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i30/30b00101.htm
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:32 pm
In J'Accuse Emile Zola wrote, "truth is on the march and nothing can stop it." Reminds me of Jeremiah Wright's accusations.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:37 pm
I recommend this article (about racism).

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7955740/Am-I-supposed-to-be-mad-about-LeBron?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:40 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Another take on Jeremiah Wright. I recommend it though I haven't finished it myself.

http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i30/30b00101.htm


Last two paragraphs are interesting. I agree with the author that the church's endorsement of Farrakhan is indefensible.

I also agree, and have stated here several times, that Wright's lies to his congregation regarding AIDS is harmful. What possible reason can there be for this.

The author of the piece is, however, not runnning for president and can keep his relationship with the Reverend and his views to his heart's content. No one will question his judgment in selecting Wright as an ally.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 26 Mar, 2008 02:41 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Those who have never experienced the congregational system sometimes do have a difficult time grasping the concept.


Well, I studied church law at university, and quite a few of my history (university) exams were church history related as well :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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