Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:41 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


What do you think the practical effects of his 'personal attitude about America' would be, or could be?

I want to you to be as specific as possible as to what you think the actual problem with his relationship with Wright is. How will it affect the job Obama does as President? What decisions might he or might he not make because of it, which worry you?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:42 pm
"I haven't seen ANYBODY criticizng Obama link Obama's liberal voting record". He'll never be liberal enough for me. I greatly admire the social outreach of his church. Not much to criticize as far as I can see. http://www.ucc.org/news/chicagos-trinity-ucc-is.html
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:46 pm
What people are saying about this Pastor Wright stuff:



Ultra-partisan morons who get their news from Sean Hannity and who would never vote for a liberal in a million years:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Racist assh*les:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Fundemental Christians whose knuckles drag on the ground when they walk:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Everyone else:

Who gives a ****?



Sorry to interrupt. Feel free to carry on with the phony outrage.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:48 pm
revel wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


His agenda is not "far left" it is merely left and I for one don't have a problem with that. I doubt many people do either after getting a taste of a true conservative platform in action these last eight years. If only we can get back to talking about that sort of thing.


Why don't you start us off then Revel? Obama is rated as the most liberal member of Congress by at least one group that analyzes these things, and running down his voting record since he became a Senator, I think they're probably right. That puts him left of even Bernie Sanders who is a registered Socialist.

So can you give us some insight into how Obama will make a good President? No fair saying that he isn't so and so or he won't be like so and so. I want to know what he will try to do that will make America stronger and more prosperous.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:48 pm
revel wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


His agenda is not "far left" it is merely left and I for one don't have a problem with that. I doubt many people do either after getting a taste of a true conservative platform in action these last eight years. If only we can get back to talking about that sort of thing.


Why don't you start us off then Revel? Obama is rated as the most liberal member of Congress by at least one group that analyzes these things, and running down his voting record since he became a Senator, I think they're probably right. That puts him left of even Bernie Sanders who is a registered Socialist.

So can you give us some insight into how Obama will make a good President? No fair saying that he isn't so and so or he won't be like so and so. I want to know what he will try to do that will make America stronger and more prosperous.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:49 pm
revel wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


His agenda is not "far left" it is merely left and I for one don't have a problem with that. I doubt many people do either after getting a taste of a true conservative platform in action these last eight years. If only we can get back to talking about that sort of thing.


Why don't you start us off then Revel? Obama is rated as the most liberal member of Congress by at least one group that analyzes these things, and running down his voting record since he became a Senator, I think they're probably right. That puts him left of even Bernie Sanders who is a registered Socialist.

So can you give us some insight into how Obama will make a good President? No fair saying that he isn't so and so or he won't be like so and so. I don't want to know what he won't do. I want to know what he will try to do that will make America stronger and more prosperous.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


What do you think the practical effects of his 'personal attitude about America' would be, or could be?

I want to you to be as specific as possible as to what you think the actual problem with his relationship with Wright is. How will it affect the job Obama does as President? What decisions might he or might he not make because of it, which worry you?

Cycloptichorn


The essential public discovery arising from the Wright matter has been that Obama is not quite the 'metra racial' candidate his supporters have touted him to be. Indeed he appears to have become closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'black' political movement.

I won't attempt any forecast of just how these new aspects of his alignments (and perhaps his character as well) might affect the specifics of any future decision he might make. Such questions simply don't have knowable answers, and to insist on a specific answer to them is both idiotic and bullying.

Howerer, the central matter here is that the Obama his supporters encourage us to get, may turn out to be very different from the person whose image his campaign has so assiduously touted.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So can you give us some insight into how Obama will make a good President? No fair saying that he isn't so and so or he won't be like so and so. I don't want to know what he won't do. I want to know what he will try to do that will make America stronger and more prosperous.


Fair enough.

Actually, mysterman posted an excerpt and link to an interesting analysis on this thread, not so long ago. Here it is again in it's entirety:


mysteryman wrote:
I know nothing about this website or the author, but here is an interesting
synopsis of Obama's economic plan...

http://www.currencytrading.net/2008/10-surprising-economic-implications-of-a-barack-obama-presidency/

Quote:
The American presidential election is rapidly drawing near. The race is becoming more intense and the field of candidates has narrowed to such that a detailed look at each of their platforms makes sense. The focus of this article is on Barack Obama, one of the leading contenders for the Democratic Party's nomination. Of primary interest for traders in the forex markets is his economic policy, though there is significant overlap between his positions on taxes, trade, and the economy. In addition, his proposed health plan and energy plan, for example, both carry important economic implications, and hence should be considered within the context of how his presidency would bear on the US economy.


Read the whole article.
It breaks things down into easier to understand parts.



You're encouraged to follow the link.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:55 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I was quite specific that Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright is a different issue from his voting record. His relationship with Jeremiah Wright could reflect on his personal attitudes about America. It is a given that Obama can be expected to promote a far left socialist agenda should he be elected President because he has a track record for that.


What do you think the practical effects of his 'personal attitude about America' would be, or could be?

I want to you to be as specific as possible as to what you think the actual problem with his relationship with Wright is. How will it affect the job Obama does as President? What decisions might he or might he not make because of it, which worry you?

Cycloptichorn


The essential public discovery arising from the Wright matter has been that Obama is not quite the 'metra racial' candidate his supporters have touted him to be. Indeed he appears to have become closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'black' political movement.

I won't attempt any forecast of just how these new aspects of his alignments (and perhaps his character as well) might affect the specifics of any future decision he might make. Such questions simply don't have knowable answers, and to insist on a specific answer to them is both idiotic and bullying.

Howerer, the central matter here is that the Obama his supporters encourage us to get, may turn out to be very different from the person whose image his campaign has so assiduously touted.


It's idiotic and bullying to ask people to be specific in their criticism of people? When did this become true?

Watch, I'm apparently about to be idiotic and bullying again. When you say this:

Quote:
the Obama his supporters encourage us to get, may turn out to be very different from the person whose image his campaign has so assiduously touted.


In what ways do you submit he may be different? Please be specific.

If you cannot do so, I submit that you are being a bully yourself, and using smears and innuendo instead of logical argument. You allude to phantom fears, ones that should give people pause in the opinion of many right-wingers here, and then attack those who ask you to specifically name those fears. How does that sound to you? Like a strong argumentative position, on a topic which many on the right-wing would like to claim is a clear-cut winner for them?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:55 pm
ACK!!! Sorry about the multiple posts. Thought I was doing a simple edit.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:56 pm
Obama has a PR problem of his own making. No one coerced him into supporting a church and pastor that hold racist and anti-American views for the past 20 years. Obama wasn't just a member of the congregation, he was Rev. Wright's protege. The mentor is well-known for his racial prejudice, anti-American rhetoric, and belief in ridiculous conspiracies. Obama claims to have been an intimate of Rev. Wright for twenty years without discovering his controversial views, opinions and prejudices. Obama is between two equally difficult positions either (1) he has long known and agreed with Rev. Wright's racially divisive prejudices and is concealing them, or (2) he remained willfully blind to the controversial and hateful views preached by his good friend and political advisor. Take your pick, but either "explanation of why Obama has clasped such a viper to his breast is a PR nightmare for him and his campaign.

It may be worth noting that this serious issue wasn't raised by the GOP, but as a byproduct of the Democratic contention for the nomination. The Clinton machine needed a way to blunt the almost religious fervor for a charismatic, but inexperienced political novice. What is surprising is that it took Hillary so long to launch this little insight into Obama's image as the only candidate who can "heal" the angst in American politics. Obama apparently didn't see it coming, and the question of whether he should be the Democratic standard-bearer may vex Democratic movers and shakers. The issue of Obama's inexperience, poor judgment, and close associations with unsavory individuals and organizations will not go away.

In my opinion, if the Democratic Party truly believes in the evil of white America, and that Obama is the best candidate to truly change things, then they should make him their nominee. But, don't expect that conservatives, Republicans, or those who prize American values will be as blind has Obama has been for the past twenty years. Obama or Clinton, take your pick and then don't whine about it later.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 04:58 pm
Quote:


The essential public discovery arising from the Wright matter has been that Obama is not quite the 'metra racial' candidate his supporters have touted him to be. Indeed he appears to have become closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'black' political movement.


Oh, and I forgot.

How is this substantively different then Republican candidates, who were and are closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'white' political movment: that is to say, evangelistic white Christian churches, the sort ran by Hagee and Falwell and Robertson? Now, I've heard you before state that you don't particularly care for that wing of the Republican party, and that's fine with me. But I have never once seen you criticize any Republican for soliciting their support, or supporting positions which are designed to garner their support, for the express purpose of doing so.

This goes for Nappy, Fox, and any of the others in this thread who are so dead-set against Obama's association with a pastor who doesn't always say things which are correct, or that we like to hear. Mighty selective criticism.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:00 pm
Asherman wrote:
"I don't pin those who refuse to accept Obama's explantion on racism; I pin it on typical politics."

Good for you. That, whether anyone likes it or not, is and always has been the way American political campaigns do business. Our system places enormous power into the hands of the President, and Political Parties attempt to persuade the voting public that their candidate is better than their candidate. At rock bottom, our electoral system fosters competition and every weakness of the opposition are seized upon and put under a microscope. Issues and campaign planks are touted as essential to garnering votes, but those rest upon our estimation of a candidate's experience, character, and political philosophy. It is not a perfect system, but it has served the United States reasonably well over the past 200 years.

The Democrats will nominate a candidate that they hope will be able to win in the general election, or a candidate whose ideological attractiveness they believe in. The GOP goes through the same exercise. The most radical elements of both Parties tend to be shrill activists who are most likely to find their way into the media spotlight. Candidates who become too closely associated with their Party's radical wing run a grave risk of losing their appeal to the less politically active, moderate American voter.

In spite of the rhetoric, not all Democrats are Leftists whose political philosophy owes more to Karl Marx than to James Madison. The Democratic Party, the Party that supported segregation from 1865-196X, has transformed itself to appeal to the enfranchised Black voters. In the process, they now revile the GOP that led the fight for enfranchisement as racists. Is it fair? Nope, but it is how politics work.

Not all Republicans are right-wing religious fanatics, or wealthy "neo-con", who are wealthy oil plutocrats. Because one supports the United States effort to combat Radical Islamic Terrorism, does not make one a "war lover" or a conspirator to world colonial domination. The political philosophy of the GOP rests upon the Constitution as designed by our Federalist founders, Washington, Adams, Hamilton, Jay, Marshall, and even Madison before he went over to the Jeffersonians whose political philosophy was so dear to the hearts of the Democratic Party since the time of Andrew Jackson.



You said:
Not all Republicans are right-wing religious fanatics, or wealthy "neo-con", who are wealthy oil plutocrats.

Is that a "personal" opinion? Can you verify that they are not and NAME your source? Do you know where they worship or if they worship, at all?
Do you see their 1040's every year and where they obtain thier wealth?
How many of them have served in the armed forces and if not, why not?
Who contributes to their campaigns? Are they "grass roots" donations or from the powerful lobbyists? Why are televangelists supporting Republicans and not Democrats? What's your party affiliation? Are you registered to vote? Do you work for a living or own your own business? Are you oil connected? Are you a "redneck" or a corporate person?
Are you homeowner or a slumlord? Do you practice what you preach?
Do you think Blacks have had enough civil rights? Do you consider them Americans?

All of the above is addressed JUST to you, since you question the patriotism, religion, associations, of the first serious Black Candidate, for the office of the United States President.

Better still, since you hate the very thought of Mr. Obama, running for the office, tell me what's so GOOD about McCain! My husband has served this country longer than Mc Cain, 4 years, US Navy, 1 tour of Viet-Nam and 22 in the Army National Guard. We have both voted for whites in every election since 1964 and have the opportunity, we hope, to vote for someone who looks like us, for a change, is qualified, a husband, father, son and brother to his sister, who isn't black! Different fathers! So just what do you want? You've already "crucified him"!

Better still, are you a member of the KKK, a skinhead? Just what? Not Equal 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:01 pm
Ashman wrote: "In my opinion, if the Democratic Party truly believes in the evil of white America, and that Obama is the best candidate to truly change things, then they should make him their nominee. But, don't expect that conservatives...

This guy thinks he has knowledge about democrats, when in fact he doesn't even know what America is about.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:01 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So can you give us some insight into how Obama will make a good President? No fair saying that he isn't so and so or he won't be like so and so. I don't want to know what he won't do. I want to know what he will try to do that will make America stronger and more prosperous.


Fair enough.

Actually, mysterman posted an excerpt and link to an interesting analysis on this thread, not so long ago. Here it is again in it's entirety:


mysteryman wrote:
I know nothing about this website or the author, but here is an interesting
synopsis of Obama's economic plan...

http://www.currencytrading.net/2008/10-surprising-economic-implications-of-a-barack-obama-presidency/

Quote:
The American presidential election is rapidly drawing near. The race is becoming more intense and the field of candidates has narrowed to such that a detailed look at each of their platforms makes sense. The focus of this article is on Barack Obama, one of the leading contenders for the Democratic Party's nomination. Of primary interest for traders in the forex markets is his economic policy, though there is significant overlap between his positions on taxes, trade, and the economy. In addition, his proposed health plan and energy plan, for example, both carry important economic implications, and hence should be considered within the context of how his presidency would bear on the US economy.


Read the whole article.
It breaks things down into easier to understand parts.



You're encouraged to follow the link.


Oh yeah, I've seen that and have participated in a lively discussion on it on another site. Other than it being hardly 'surprising' coming from a liberal Democrat, it did provide for some interesting debate. Too much for one post though.

Is there any one aspect of it that you would like to hold up as especially commendable? Please provide your rationale for why you think it is. Once we've sucked all the goody out of that one, perhaps we could then deal with others.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:12 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I have a HUGE problem with Obama's liberalness. He leans so far left, his ear can touch the ground.


Well, that's not entirely fair. He has pretty big ears.

What I was going to say to you earlier was thank you for actually arguing issues, but I was afraid to say it too soon.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:16 pm
For every time a person uses "socialism" like it's a dirty word in this thread, a senior should lose his social security check for the month.

For every time someone denies the role socialism plays in the american make-up and identity, a school teacher should lose their job.

For every time a person tries to ingender fear of socialism into another person, a fireman should lose their job.

Our culture is a mix of many things, to deny socialism's role, or worse to give credit to something else, is criminally ignorant.

Obama has good ideas, and yes some of them are colored socialist. No need for apologie. Some applause would be nice.

The use of the word "socialism" during the coming election is idiotic.
K
O
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:24 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
For every time a person uses "socialism" like it's a dirty word in this thread, a senior should lose his social security check for the month.

For every time someone denies the role socialism plays in the american make-up and identity, a school teacher should lose their job.

For every time a person tries to ingender fear of socialism into another person, a fireman should lose their job.

Our culture is a mix of many things, to deny socialism's role, or worse to give credit to something else, is criminally ignorant.

Obama has good ideas, and yes some of them are colored socialist. No need for apologie. Some applause would be nice.

The use of the word "socialism" during the coming election is idiotic.
K
O


Don't worry Diest. The Republicans use it all the time but call it a "democracy", then open a place, like Gitmo or Abu Graib! I've been getting emails warning of "martial law" in the fall to sabotage the election and "detention camps", for people like me! Why else are they probing into the passport records of prominent Americans? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


The essential public discovery arising from the Wright matter has been that Obama is not quite the 'metra racial' candidate his supporters have touted him to be. Indeed he appears to have become closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'black' political movement.


Oh, and I forgot.

How is this substantively different then Republican candidates, who were and are closely aligned with some of the least enlightened forces in the 'white' political movment: that is to say, evangelistic white Christian churches, the sort ran by Hagee and Falwell and Robertson? Now, I've heard you before state that you don't particularly care for that wing of the Republican party, and that's fine with me. But I have never once seen you criticize any Republican for soliciting their support, or supporting positions which are designed to garner their support, for the express purpose of doing so.

This goes for Nappy, Fox, and any of the others in this thread who are so dead-set against Obama's association with a pastor who doesn't always say things which are correct, or that we like to hear. Mighty selective criticism.

Cycloptichorn


Which of the GOP candidates was a member of Hagee's or Falwell's churches or any other minister to whom you object? Who had a 20-year association with them? Who held them up as their spiritual guides and mentors? Who put them on their campaign staffs?

Do any of the GOP contenders belong to a church lauding a pastor who preaches allegiance to Africa, who says God d*mn America, who accuses the US government of then and now attempting to destroy black people?

I think any of us accept that anybody can say things with which we don't agree or that aren't 'correct'. But for most of us there is also a point at which it is no longer reasonable to be tolerant of a message that is intended to divide and stir up hate and anger.

For highly partisan types on the Left, just one 'incorrect term/phrase' is sufficient to damn somebody and demand their head. Jimmy the Greek was forced out of sports for innocently attempting to explain the superiority of blacks in certain sports despite apologies following. Marge Shott had to sell her basketball team for joking with the "n" word despite public apology. Trent Lott was forced to resign as Senate majority leader for making one statement praising a 90-year-old colleague despite profuse apology afterward. Don Imus was forced out over one politically incorrect joke despite repeated contrite apologies. (Obama demanded his head.) Geraldine Ferraro had to resign her campaign position for making one statement re Obama's credentials for President.

I don't recall any Republican commending any of those statements though few probably thought it to be hate speech or that should have disqualified anybody from anything.

But Jeremiah Wright's frequent, long standing, and unapologetic anti-semitic, racist, bigoted, anti-American sermons and speeches are okay? We shouldn't even question them? Or the Candidate who has condoned them for 20 years, even cited this person as a spiritual mentor and advisor, until just now?

Some people talk out of their hats with no attempt to analyze a situation rationally or compare apples to apples. And some try to draw the most unreasonable analogies to support an untenable position.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Mon 24 Mar, 2008 05:43 pm
kickycan wrote:
What people are saying about this Pastor Wright stuff:



Ultra-partisan morons who get their news from Sean Hannity and who would never vote for a liberal in a million years:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Racist assh*les:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Fundemental Christians whose knuckles drag on the ground when they walk:

OBAMA'S PASTOR IS A RABID AMERICA-HATING RACIST!!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!


Everyone else:

Who gives a ****?



Sorry to interrupt. Feel free to carry on with the phony outrage.



Good one, kickycan.
0 Replies
 
 

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