Obama '08?

If one candidate can be judged in what they say, what they support, what their relationships are, then Obama shouldn't be given a pass based on those things either, Candidone.

I agree that none of us can see into the thoughts and soul of another. All we have to judge somebody else on is what they do, what they say, and the company they keep.

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

I just think that even though the speech was on target that it doesn't reflect his real feelings.

Ok, fair enough. I just have a hard time reading and/or listening to that speech and doubting that he means it. Of course it's just my judgment, but it seemed to me that, given what's at stake, you don't put stuff like that out there and not mean it. He wrote it himself. It took two days. I don't know, I'm a cynic and all but it rang true to me.

If one candidate can be judged in what they say, what they support, what their relationships are, then Obama shouldn't be given a pass based on those things either, Candidone.

I agree that none of us can see into the thoughts and soul of another. All we have to judge somebody else on is what they do, what they say, and the company they keep.

Foxfyre wrote:

From TUCC's website:

Quote:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Also from their site:

Quote:

Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God's family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus' command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.

The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America's economic mal-distribution!

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

So back to what you said about the primary purpose/emphasis of an organization, how is agreeing with the goals of this organization a problem for Obama? It sounded to me as if you were taking a few statements from Wright and conflating them with the mission of the church.

What's the thing you think he's hiding?

Being totally honest

ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

If one candidate can be judged in what they say, what they support, what their relationships are, then Obama shouldn't be given a pass based on those things either, Candidone.

I agree that none of us can see into the thoughts and soul of another. All we have to judge somebody else on is what they do, what they say, and the company they keep.

There is a huge irony when conservative Christians start demanding that preachers from black churches be politically correct.

Do you think that there are any conservative churches that don't have a pastor on record as saying something racially or ethnically insensitive?

Are you seriously addressing that to me, the bane and loudest outspoken critic of political correctness on A2K?

Please show where ANYBODY has suggested that preachers from black churches should be politically correct.

And please show where ANYBODY has suggested that conservative churches are never guilty of saying something racially or ethnically insensitive.

And then please explain how ANY of that has ANYTHING to do with the issue of Barack Obama.

Foxfyre wrote:

If one candidate can be judged in what they say, what they support, what their relationships are, then Obama shouldn't be given a pass based on those things either, Candidone.

I agree that none of us can see into the thoughts and soul of another. All we have to judge somebody else on is what they do, what they say, and the company they keep.

No one should be given a pass on things if others are being held to a different standard.

I have tried to keep up on who Obama is, what he stands for, what his vision entails, and in spite of the occasional smokescreen, his life work and his vision is noble....far more noble than countless other viable candidates in recent history.

No, sorry Fox, I don't see the problem. You seem to have boiled the problem down to the fact that Obama belonged to a black church that was dedicated to helping black people.

I'm thinking I need to go get the mission statement off of a synagogue and see if your substitution jutsu works for you there.

me, the bane and loudest outspoken critic of political correctness on A2K

Now if you don't think it would be a problem to substitute 'white' for 'black' and "white America' for "Africa' in that statement, fine. I accept that. I think any person who belonged to a church that advertised itself as "We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a white worship service and ministries which address the white Community" would be absolutely crucified by the members on A2K, however, and nobody would believe for a minute that this person was not committed to that statement.

I don't see a problem that Obama belonged to a black church that was dedicated to helping black people either, nor did I suggest anything wrong with that.

I do see a problem with Obama sharing the racist and anti-American views of his pastor presumably with the consent of the congregation if he in fact does. You are the one who asked what TUCC was all about so I provided the information I had.

Does this make sense?

I can honestly appreciate Obama for not abandoning a friend with whom he disagrees. If I abandoned my friends for holding views I don't share, I wouldn't have any friends. But I am not running for President where the views I hold can be expected to influence the kind of leadership I will provide. It is one thing to express a generic "I don't agree wtih all he or she says" and to specifically disavow a specific statement about what I do believe. "To say God d*amn America is wrong. I believe God blesses America and so do I in my prayers....." or something to that effect would have been more reassuring to the skeptics I think.

There is a bit of hypocracy in the above paragraph. You say you would not abandon friends for holding views you don't share. At the same time you disqualify Obama because he is friends with people who have views he does not share and won't abandon them. Another bit of hypocracy is the belief that the short snippets represent all that Rev. Wright is, yet disqualify Obama when he says "I don't agree with all he says" because it wasn't specific enough.

And he has the problem of credibility in those clips I posted yesterday in which he adamently insisted he 'never knew' or 'never heard' about Pastor Wright's more inflammatory remarks and 'would have quit' if he had.

It is obvious from the website--which has been considerably revised since it came under close scrutiny via Obama and some more inflammatory phrases have been removed--this is an activist church that pretty much reflects the views of its longtime pastor.

Obama's website once referred to his religious heritage and Pastor Wright complete with links and photos that have all been expunged from the site in the last few days.

At the same time, I am reading comments from the likes of Dick Morris today that this won't sink Obama. And he is probably right.

Question for you Foxfyre....

Do you consider members of the church Obama attends (and of other similar black churches) to be your brothers and sisters in Christ?

What's the thing you think he's hiding?

I can truthfully say that most of the membership represented in both, no matter what their race/ethnicity/ideology, would have stayed in a congregation preaching what Jeremiah Wright was preaching. They would have fired him or they would have left.