Obama '08?

They know that McCain cannot beat him;

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:

Part of the problem in trying to figure this out relates to the diversity (such as it is) in the interests of the various modern conservative movement sectors. Clearly, the one thing that does tie them together is the desire to retain existing power. Thus, no matter who the Dem candidate is, they can be counted on to act in a predictable manner...do whatever they deem necessary (pretty much) to win the general. They'll mount sustained attacks on either candidate.

Unfortunately, this describes BOTH parties and BOTH (liberal and conservative) ends of the political spectrum.

For you to say, unless I am misunderstanding you, that only the conservatives do this is to be blind to what really happens.
No matter what party or philosophy is in power, their main objective is to retain that power by doing whatever is neccessary to retain power.

It isn't a matter of party. What you have yet to get your head properly around is how extremist the modern conservative movement is. How non-traditional and non-republican it is.

If he is correct, why is it "racist" to express that resentment?

mysteryman wrote:

If he is correct, why is it "racist" to express that resentment?

It isnt. Not necessarily, anyway - it depends on how that resentment is expressed. If it's expressed in terms of "black people suck", well. But it sounds like Obama did a good job in laying out how it doesnt mean that they're just "racists".

I think that people in that situation may end up saying or feeling resentment-fuelled things that are or sound racist, but that dont come from racist convictions, and that dont necessarily make the person himself a racist.

I like that about Obama. Just like he can look at Rev. Wright and say, well, I dont agree at all with some of the things he said, but I can easily understand where he's coming from or why he would say them, he can also look at this white, immigrant working class guy whose imperiled place in society has made him feel resentful or prejudiced, and say the same. I dont agree with him, I dont think he's right, but I sure can understand where he's coming from, or how he's come to feel that way.

That's always been kind of how I've looked at it, and I think empathy is one of the most important things for a politician to have.

nimh wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

If he is correct, why is it "racist" to express that resentment?

It isnt. Not necessarily, anyway - it depends on how that resentment is expressed. If it's expressed in terms of "black people suck", well. But it sounds like Obama did a good job in laying out how it doesnt mean that they're just "racists".

I think that people in that situation may end up saying or feeling resentment-fuelled things that are or sound racist, but that dont come from racist convictions, and that dont necessarily make the person himself a racist.

I like that about Obama. Just like he can look at Rev. Wright and say, well, I dont agree at all with some of the things he said, but I can easily understand where he's coming from or why he would say them, he can also look at this white, immigrant working class guy whose imperiled place in society has made him feel resentful or prejudiced, and say the same. I dont agree with him, I dont think he's right, but I sure can understand where he's coming from, or how he's come to feel that way.

That's always been kind of how I've looked at it, and I think empathy is one of the most important things for a politician to have.

I agree with you, but so many people, including some on here, would immediately call it racist if that resentment was expressed at all.
And that is where I have a problem.

I agree with you, but so many people, including some on here, would immediately call it racist if that resentment was expressed at all.
And that is where I have a problem.

mysteryman wrote:

nimh wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

If he is correct, why is it "racist" to express that resentment?

It isnt. Not necessarily, anyway - it depends on how that resentment is expressed. If it's expressed in terms of "black people suck", well. But it sounds like Obama did a good job in laying out how it doesnt mean that they're just "racists".

I think that people in that situation may end up saying or feeling resentment-fuelled things that are or sound racist, but that dont come from racist convictions, and that dont necessarily make the person himself a racist.

I like that about Obama. Just like he can look at Rev. Wright and say, well, I dont agree at all with some of the things he said, but I can easily understand where he's coming from or why he would say them, he can also look at this white, immigrant working class guy whose imperiled place in society has made him feel resentful or prejudiced, and say the same. I dont agree with him, I dont think he's right, but I sure can understand where he's coming from, or how he's come to feel that way.

That's always been kind of how I've looked at it, and I think empathy is one of the most important things for a politician to have.

I agree with you, but so many people, including some on here, would immediately call it racist if that resentment was expressed at all.
And that is where I have a problem.

What you have a problem with is painting everything with a braid brush. When someone ascribes racist motivation to a specific target, you think they are talking about you.

Top headlines on Google News now include:

Obama confronts nation's race issues (LA Times) Obama calls for racial unity (Boston Globe) Obama Confronts Racial Division in US (AP) Obama addresses America's racial legacy (MSNBC) Text of Obama's Speech: A More Perfect Union (WSJ) Barack Obama's Speech on Race in America Is Honest, Brutal (New York Magazine) Obama, Seizing on Divisive Comments, Aims for Unity (CNSNews) Obama Tackles Race Issue Head-On (KWTX) Obama Holds Forth on Race, Answering Critics (NPR)

Those are all good news, I think, for Obama (tho the last one sounds a bit defensive); and this one probably is too, even though they missed the point:

Obama Speech: Rebuking Rev. Wright (WSJ)

But then there are these ones:

Obama denounces preacher, says can't disown him (Reuters) Obama's speech on race, Wright saves his campaign -- for now (Kansas City Star) Obama Condemns Wright's Rhetoric, But Defends Ongoing Relationship (Fox News)

The "modern conservative movement" is the same it always was.
Its how some of the people in power today have twisted it and repudiated it that is the difference.
A "true" conservative is the same today as they have always been (at least as long as I have been following politics,the Nixon years).
The mistake you are making is to think that Bush or any of the people in the WH today are actually conservatives.
They arent.

nappyheadedhohoho wrote:

He backtracked. He has said many times that he never heard those 'controversial' remarks and told FoxNews on Friday night that if he had heard them in person, he'd have quit the church.

That is just not true. Obama never claimed that he never heard Wright make controversial remarks. Dissecting that video, the only REALLY offensive thing that Wright said that resonates with me is that Goddamn America statement. That offended me.

And Obama remained sincere in refusing to disown Wright. This was a very sincere speech that will resonate with the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are NOT racists.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments."

GARRETT: So, quick yes or no. If had you heard them in person you would have quit?

OBAMA: If I had heard them repeated, I would have quit.

Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes.

Not a racist, just a moron.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Not a racist, just a moron.

Cycloptichorn

Obama's racist pastor is the moron since he's probably just handed the presidency to John McCain.

Roxxxanne wrote:

nappyheadedhohoho wrote:

He backtracked. He has said many times that he never heard those 'controversial' remarks and told FoxNews on Friday night that if he had heard them in person, he'd have quit the church.

That is just not true. Obama never claimed that he never heard Wright make controversial remarks. Dissecting that video, the only REALLY offensive thing that Wright said that resonates with me is that Goddamn America statement. That offended me.

And Obama remained sincere in refusing to disown Wright. This was a very sincere speech that will resonate with the VAST MAJORITY of Americans who are NOT racists.

Yes, it is true. Sozobe referenced this quote by Obama in another thread where there was some concern on her part that someone would be able to refute his claim. See here.

Barack Obama wrote:

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments."

He further told Major Garret on FoxNews that if he'd heard any of those controversial statements he would have left the church.

Quote:

GARRETT: So, quick yes or no. If had you heard them in person you would have quit?

OBAMA: If I had heard them repeated, I would have quit.

In Obama's speech he said:

Quote:

Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes.

As for you calling me a racist for pointing this out or, more likely, for not being an Obama supporter, fine. I do not support Obama. If that makes me a racist in his supporters' eyes, so be it.

That is just not true. Obama never claimed that he never heard Wright make controversial remarks.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Not a racist, just a moron.

Cycloptichorn

Obama's racist pastor is the moron since he's probably just handed the presidency to John McCain.