sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 04:43 pm
Laughing

I don't watch enough TV to have seen any of the Ohio ads, but just got a Hillary mailer!

The one with the sad-looking group -- older white lady, young hipster dude, older white guy, older white lady X 2, young Asian guy, young black woman, young white woman -- in B&W under the caption "Which of These People Don't Deserve Health Care?"

Then on the back,

"Barack Obama's Health Care Plan Leaves 15 Million Americans Without Coverage. WILL IT BE YOU?"
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 04:52 pm
Oh and one more local note...

I don't get the timing of the debate. Isn't it supposed to be a big deal? But it's an hour later than most debates (2 hours later than some), and at 9:00 to 10:30 EST (our time zone), really not prime time. I wonder who's going to watch? I'm seeing a lot of "debate watching parties" among the college/ young adult set. Me, I'm going to be in bed and will miss the whole thing. (Probably for the best. The last couple of debates have made me so nervous -- watching them the next day on CNN after I already knew the rough outline worked out better overall.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 04:59 pm
sozobe wrote:
"Barack Obama's Health Care Plan Leaves 15 Million Americans Without Coverage. WILL IT BE YOU?"

Oh no! I wish the Obama campaign hadn't started it with his misleading a few weeks ago, but I also wish the Clinton folks hadn't responded by similarly slanderous health care lies -- and hadn't escalated it into TV ads.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 04:59 pm
sozobe wrote:
Oh and one more local note...

I don't get the timing of the debate. Isn't it supposed to be a big deal? But it's an hour later than most debates (2 hours later than some), and at 9:00 to 10:30 EST (our time zone), really not prime time. I wonder who's going to watch? I'm seeing a lot of "debate watching parties" among the college/ young adult set. Me, I'm going to be in bed and will miss the whole thing. (Probably for the best. The last couple of debates have made me so nervous -- watching them the next day on CNN after I already knew the rough outline worked out better overall.)


Ohio is Eastern Time? I thought it was central!

Though now that I look at a map, I guess not, by a whole state actually. Hmm.

Well heck, it comes on just in the right time for us here on the West Coast...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:11 pm
Even in Ohio, which has polled as a robust Clinton stronghold right from the start, it turns out that the Obama campaign organised long before the Clinton people did - and on a much larger scale; bottom-up, from the grassroots.

Now the state's machine politics that Clinton relies on has kicked into gear too, imposing in its own way. But reading the following, vivid report from TIME, you got to shake your head at the striking difference in character between the campaigns - and nod in awe at the popular, grassroots wave Obama is riding.

If he manages to bridge the gap and challenge Hillary's score even here, one should hope that the Democratic party machine will look closely at how he did it, and what exactly happened here. And will learn from it.

Especially interesting for Sozobe, I'm guessing Smile

Quote:
Obama's Ohio Grassroots Advantage

Time
Monday, Feb. 25, 2008


Home base for Hillary

Quote:
For Hillary Clinton, that place of comfort in Ohio is Kamm's Corners, a neighborhood on Cleveland's west side dominated by white firefighters, cops and factory workers. One of Clinton's strongest supporters here, Pat Dorr, has driven a Buick with an "I love Hillary" bumper sticker since the mid-1990s.

Dorr became active in the Clinton campaign last week, after a national campaign staffer asked her to make phone calls. "When I first came in, there was nobody here," says Dorr, 78, who has helped so many campaigns over the years that she's lost count. "This whole week, this office was basically empty."


Home base for Barack

Quote:
Home base for Barack Obama lies on the opposite side of town, in the Lee-Harvard neighborhood, home to mostly working-class African-American families. One of Obama's first volunteers here was Antoinette McCall, a substitute high school teacher who has never worked a campaign before in her life. McCall became active 11 months ago, donating what little money she could to Obama's campaign. She used Obama's website to recruit volunteers and run a phone bank from her living room. She convinced friends who own beauty salons to organize their customers, and created a database of hundreds of Obama supporters.

"It's like we had this whole movement built up before the campaign staff even got here," says McCall, 36. In a few months, McCall, a political novice, has built an organization rivaling that of some state senators who form the backbone of Clinton's establishment support. "By the time they finally opened the office," she says, "this place was packed."


Grassroots neophytes vs. party machine politics

Quote:


But it's the neophytes that were there earlier, in greater numbers, and with greater efficacy

Quote:
But it could be getting a bit late for that. All winter, the heart of Hillary Clinton's campaign in central Ohio was Jamie Dixey's apartment in the affluent Columbus suburb of New Albany. She started by inviting nine friends over to listen in on a national conference call with Clinton. She organized two monthly meetings, both of which attracted about 10 people. "It was very hard to get people interested because it was so early," Dixey says. In the world of traditional Democratic Party campaigns, this was enough to qualify Dixey as a star volunteer. She won an invitation to Governor Ted Strickland's rally on Jan. 19 formally kicking off Clinton's grassroots campaign in Ohio.

Dixey's counterpart on the Obama campaign, Valli Frausto, signed up to volunteer for Obama on Feb. 11, 2007, the day after he announced his candidacy. Immediately she found the social networking section of Obama's website, my.barackobama.com, which campaign insiders affectionately call "MyBO." Frausto posted a personal profile, just as she would on MySpace, and met other supporters online. Within six months, her group of three women had grown to over 200 members. Together they used the website's event planning tools to organize Obama for President picnics, neighborhood cleanups, phone banks and a 5K fundraiser run.

After Super Tuesday, as national staff for both campaigns descended on Ohio, Obama's state leaders began flexing the power of MyBO and the grassroots network it spawned. Across the state, Obama's 300 web-based groups started canvassing neighborhoods three days to a week before Clinton's campaign, supporters on both sides say.

At the end of a regular e-mail to Democratic Party activists, the Clinton campaign attached a plea last week begging volunteers to bring food to staff members working at the campaign headquarters. When Frausto read the message, she chuckled. Obama's campaign already had a volunteer whose only job is to coordinate the dozens of people who pledged to cook lunch and dinner for Obama's 60 staff members in Columbus every day through March 4.


The Clinton machine remains formidable ..

Quote:
Building Obama's network from the ground up took months. One advantage of a top-down approach is that, with just a few phone calls, the Democratic Party machine can mobilize thousands of volunteers in just a few days.

"I only started calling my people last week," said State Senator Dale Miller, a Democratic stalwart on Cleveland's west side. "In retrospect, if I had started a week or two earlier, we would be better off now."

Miller's organization remains formidable, however. He spent the last few months calling hundreds of supporters, asking them to volunteer for Clinton and tracking those who seemed responsive. He visited every neighborhood Democratic club in his district at least once, filling his clipboard with new volunteers. "The people I know may not be huge in number, but they are the people who are the most active in their neighborhoods," says Miller.


.. but it's under pressure from below

Quote:
But at least on Cleveland's east side, Obama's surging grassroots success has stolen Clinton's establishment base right out from under her. Cleveland City Councilman Kevin Conwell came out early for Clinton, winning a trip to the national convention to vote for her.

Then Conwell's constituents sat him down for a little chat. "I met with my residents and tried to get them to go with Hillary," Conwell says. "Not one of them would move. All of my volunteers, all my block club presidents, every last one of them was going for Barack."

Conwell was forced to relinquish his seat at the convention. He spent last Saturday canvassing his ward for Obama.

"Now that I've been with both campaigns, I see that Obama's has a lot more volunteers, and they're all grassroots people from the neighborhood," Conwell says. "I didn't think this movement would grow. I was wrong. It's strong."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:21 pm
spendius wrote:
These delegates that have been voted for to go to the convention must be able to change their mind.

Suppose their chosen candidate was exposed for some perfectly legal gross moral turpitude either of recent or distant history. I know there would be a scale of grossness but they would probably feel that average grossness was beyond the pale so they would either have to have a fresh primary or be able to change their mind. Voting for that candidate at the convention would associate the delegates with the turpitude. It wouldn't be a minor matter I'm inclined to think.

Having established that they can change their mind are there other circumstances where they might?

Even "pledged" delegates still have the right to change their mind and vote for another candidate, yes. At least most of them, from what I understand - though there is a jungle of different rules from state to state.

There was a brief kerfluffle last week (I think it was), when something the Clinton campaign said could be interpreted to mean that they wouldnt just go after superdelegates to persuade those to vote for Hillary, but that they would start contacting pledged delegates as well, to convince them that they should vote for Hillary at the convention anyhow. There was a momentary uproar before the Clinton campaign promised it never meant to do so.

I'm guessing the main reason why even pledged delegates still have the right to vote for another candidate is so those delegates who were pledged to candidates who dropped out during the race can still vote. (Though you can question whether that's really right, since it's not like, say, Edwards or Romney voters expressed what their second choice was.) Either that or, as you say, so they can switch their vote in the case the candidate they were pledged to was found to have brutally murdered seventeen teenage Catholic virgins in his youth.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:21 pm
I'm beginning to wonder if there is a serious reason why nobody will answer my question.

It is Ask an Expert after all and you are obviously all experts.

What sort of a site is this when it says Ask an Expert and so you come on and ask a question and they ignore you having asked it.

That makes it look like they didn't come on Ask an Expert to ask any experts but to bray their propaganda out.

I cannot become abled to know on Able 2 Know whether delegates "can" change their minds.

Sheesh!!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:22 pm
Look up :wink:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:22 pm
sorry nimh.

Timing.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:27 pm
What was the question, Spendius? Can Super-delegates change their minds without being accountable to anyone? Yes. Absolutely. Yes.
Nimh responded to this, but I wanted to make it more emphatic.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:30 pm
Actually nimh I did specify nothing illegal. I think that brutally murdering seventeen teenage Catholic virgins is illegal. And a tragic waste. At the alpha end.

I don't know about half-a-dozen though. It's illegal here.

I can deal with gross moral turpitude without bothering with illegal activities or anything Jesus was ever known to object to.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:35 pm
blatham wrote:
okie wrote:
blatham wrote:
real life wrote:
High Seas wrote:


Quote:
"...... this is the saddest election I've ever worked in," said Ginger Grossman, a prominent Democratic organizer in Miami-Dade County, who says she hears countless Jewish liberals tell her they won't vote for Obama if he wins the nomination.

"It's outrageous,..... I know it's because he's black, or I feel it is," said Grossman, a Clinton supporter .....

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/25/Worldandnation/Party_frets_over_frac.shtml


Maybe it's because he supports anti-Semites and they support him................

Nuttin personal, but that's likely to be the dumbest and least educated comment I'm going to read today.

Whats dumb and least educated about it? Obama is likely going to be much more sympathetic to anti-Israel interests, and likely more pro-Palestinian.


You get second place.

Ask the lady for clarification. Who exactly is she speaking of. Why does she define them as 'anti-Semites' seeing as they will mainly be jews she names, if she does, but she won't because she's far too lazy to actually go to any trouble reading outside her razor-thin intellectual comfort zone...ask her how often she's cracked Haaretz or another Israeli paper compared to townhall or Fox.

And then ask her to describe to you her intimate knowledge of peace movements within Israel. That should be fun.

And when she's done all that, which she'll never be but perhaps someone might imagine it, then the two of you can sit down and try to work out how disagreement with a Likud or Kadima party policy (disagreements such as are held by millions of jews here and in Israel) do not make those jewish and non-jewish people into anti-Semites.

Good luck with your project that won't ever happen.


Bernie - this story started in FLA, but has gone international:
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/107170.html

Quote:
Barack Obama faulted elements in the pro-Israel community that he says equate being pro-Israel with being pro-Likud.

"I think there is a strain within the pro-Israel community that says unless you adopt a unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel that you're anti-Israel and that can't be the measure of our friendship with Israel," the Illinois senator and contender for the Democratic presidential nominee told a group of Jewish leaders in Cleveland on Sunday. "If we cannot have an honest dialogue about how do we achieve these goals, then we're not going to make progress."

The Likud Party, in the Israeli opposition, advocates minimal territorial concessions to the Palestinians and promotes settlement in the West Bank.

Obama was addressing a series of attacks, most from Republicans, that suggest that he has surrounded himself with anti-Israel advisers. He noted that he did not take the advice of Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Carter administration national security adviser named in some of the attack e-mails....
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:37 pm
No rjb.

I was talking about delegates voted for in the primaries.

I know super-delegates can change their mind. What's the point of being a super-delegate if you can't even do that?

I don't think you understood the question.

Perhaps reading more slowly might help.

Voted for delegates. There is a crucial difference.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:41 pm
....and of course.....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957778.html
Quote:
In any case, she stresses, this is not exactly her field. Power is the Anna Lindh Professor of Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. Her reputation stems largely from her excellent previous book, "A Problem from Hell," which documents the world's indifference to genocide, from the Armenians to Rwandans. It earned her a Pulitzer Prize and made her an extremely popular speaker among Jewish communities in America, which are very active in areas that are her bread and butter, such as stopping the killing in Darfur, Sudan.

Power is somewhat frustrated by the need to address every snippet of past statements. After all, the candidate himself, Obama, has expressed clear positions on nearly every matter relating to the Middle East. Like others among Obama's supporters and campaign staff, she thinks that a problem with Obama's critics is that they tend to ignore completely what he himself says. As though his words are merely of secondary importance, and what reflects his true opinion are all sorts of past quotes from close and not-so-close aides.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:49 pm
Quote:
Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government


Is her office door big enough to get that lot on in white paint?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:49 pm
Spendius - answer to your previous question is: it depends. Some of the "committed" delegates may be "freed" if their candidate leaves the race; others are bound to vote for whomever their departed candidate endorses; yet others are not bound to a single candidate, rather like those free electrons you're so fond of discussing:)
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:50 pm
I am sorry for mis-understanding your question, Spendious. Regular delegates are expected to follow the decision made by the voters in the primaries or caucuses. They are under no legal obligation to do so, since these are private rather than public elections, but these folks live in those communities. If a candidate withraws, however, they become free agents, able to go to whomever.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:57 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
They are under no legal obligation to do so, since these are private rather than public elections, but these folks live in those communities.

Would anybody find out, though? I assume they'd just give the total numbers of votes, not each of the x thousand delegates' individual vote?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 07:06 pm
You can't use 'x' in your post...it's plagiarizing. :wink:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 26 Feb, 2008 07:12 pm
Suppose the candidate brazened the gross moral turpitude out and said "So what?"

I know I'm being pedantic on the Constitution but others pull on that rope when it suits them often enough.

Was all the money bet on the primaries bet on there not being a video in a safe somewhere depicting the candidate in what might be discreetly called a somwhat compromising situation?
0 Replies
 
 

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