blatham
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:55 pm
Re: mysteryman
mysteryman wrote:
blatham wrote:
real life wrote:
nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
But, you still didnt answer my original question.
Would you accept an swastika hanging in a McCain office because it wasnt an "official" office?

I think a Che flag is in bad taste, while a swastika is unacceptable. The difference may have something to do with the swastika referring to mass genocide across an entire continent, 6 million exterminated Jews, all that. Che Guevara may have been a ruthless and loathsome figure (and anyone who primarily associates Che with the romanticized movie image of this guy "studying medicine, travelling through South America, sympathizing with the impoverished" should read that thread) -- but come on, he was no Hitler.



oh.........so it's ok as long as he committed fewer[/u] murders than Hitler?

In that case, just about any criminal is ok, because few if any will ever equal the total #s Hitler was responsible for.

So, if Obama campaign offices feature pics of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, it's all good, eh?


Well, plus the odd 'n end here that it is entirely debatable whether Che's actions resulted in more murders than have the CIA's actions in Chile and elsewhere.

So here in my home, I have neither a Che poster nor an American flag.


Thats ok, the only flag I have in my home is one from the 106th Illinois Volunteers, the regiment my ancestor served with during the civil war.

They were with Sherman from Atlanta to the sea up thru the Carolina's.
I also have his letters to his wife AND his journal.


That seems fine to me.

I confess that my family has, and treasures, an arrowhead that we believe was shot towards a Slavic prince but missed and did in an innocent ancestor.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:56 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
The only flag I have in my home is the one that was drapped over my father's coffin and presented to me a few months ago.

Do I win?


Clearly, no.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:57 pm
Re: mysteryman
mysteryman wrote:
FYI, Mao and the Chicoms murdered alot more then Hitler ever did.

Right. And? Yes yes, they're all communists I know. Otherwise? Che's guilty enough of his own crimes against his people without getting Mao's 80 million dead shoved into the mix.

If those volunteers had had a Mao poster on the wall, it would have been like having one of Hitler on the wall. Che, loathsome though he was, wasnt quite in the same category. If we start equating every totalitarian thug with Hitler and Mao, we only trivialise the holocausts those tyrants unleashed.

Especially with Che because of how his image has gone through the mind-dumbing grinder of commoditisation, becoming nothing more than a market product that allows teens to buy rebel cred for the price of a t-shirt. There's little ideology involved beyond some hazy sense of being "against the system".

Consider it a triumph of capitalism. Even the most ruthless revolutionary communist can be reprocessed into a supermarket commodity.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 09:17 pm
Text of Obama's Detailed Economic Policy Address at the Janesville GM Assembly Plant
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 09:21 pm
So where do I get a Che flag? I don't have one.
Anyway, I had a dear friend back in the 60's who fathered a girl child and named her Morgan (for the Brit sports car) "Che" **** and the hospital called him to say they noted on the birth certificate that the new born was a she and it was not necessary to add "che' to her name. He was a meter reader for the utilities company and was beat to death with a wrench by a customer unhappy with his bill, it's ok he was a liberal. He was 48 at the time.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 09:46 pm
Butrflynet, I'm afraid no matter how good Obama may be in giving speeches, the solution to fix our economy is going to take decades. Our econony has been too bastaredized for easy short-term solutions. It's not only jobs that continue to pay lower and lower wages, but the deficit spending by both consumers and our government.

Lowering the interest rate only exacerbates what's already bad about our economy, and giving one-time cash rebates to taxpayers does nothing for the short-term or long-term. We have a bunch of idiots in Washington; they only do things they think wins votes.

We all know what a sham is, and our government continues to do all the wrong things. They continue to fund the war in Iraq while our own citizens lose jobs, lose homes, and lose health insurance.

It's hopeless.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:01 pm
dyslexia wrote:
So where do I get a Che flag? I don't have one.
Anyway, I had a dear friend back in the 60's who fathered a girl child and named her Morgan (for the Brit sports car) "Che" **** and the hospital called him to say they noted on the birth certificate that the new born was a she and it was not necessary to add "che' to her name. He was a meter reader for the utilities company and was beat to death with a wrench by a customer unhappy with his bill, it's ok he was a liberal. He was 48 at the time.
I'll send you a Che flag.....and a coffee cup, and a pen and a shirt and a blanket.

With a conplimentary "Sí se puede!" Farm workers flag.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:05 pm
over my dead body!
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:07 pm
c.i., did you read his plan or his speech about his plan?

What you describe in your post doesn't resemble what I read.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:08 pm
dyslexia wrote:
He was a meter reader for the utilities company and was beat to death with a wrench by a customer unhappy with his bill, it's ok he was a liberal. He was 48 at the time.


Oy. I'm glad i don't have to deal with people's health or money... safely tucked away in non-profit.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:53 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
over my dead body!
I'll send you "Che" underwear that says "Si Se Puede" On the front and has The farm workers emblem on the back.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
With this news, Obama's overall lead shrinks to 42 delegates, per CNN. His lead in Pledged delegates shrinks to 119, per CNN.

Cycloptichorn


You are affixed to the mathematics of this race - it will not, as have we wagered, be determined so.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:18 pm
In addition to the Los Angeles independent ballots that aren't yet counted, there are still a million absentee/vote-by-mail ballots that haven't been counted in California. The deadline is March 4th. Will it be enough to change the delegate allocation a bit?

Quote:
This story is taken from Sacbee / Politics.

1 million votes still untallied in California
By Dorothy Korber - [email protected]
Published 12:00 am PST Thursday, February 14, 2008

Super Tuesday seems long gone as the nation turns its hungry eyes to the next round of presidential primaries - but for nearly a million Californians, the votes they cast in the presidential primary are yet to be counted.

This mountain of absentee and provisional ballots - 960,000 of them by one estimate - equals the total number of Democratic votes cast in Virginia this week and far exceeds Maryland and the District of Columbia.


"In California, we're sitting on almost a million votes still to be tallied - and meanwhile the pundits are going on and on about states that don't have a million votes, total," said Steve Weir, who keeps a running tally of "unprocessed ballots" in his role as president of the California Association of Clerks and Election Officials.

California's slow count is the product of a couple of factors: the state's growing love affair with absentee ballots paired with a high-voltage primary that drew inexperienced voters who were enthusiastic but sometimes careless.

In Sacramento County, 90,000 ballots remain unprocessed, while 277,000 had been counted as of Wednesday afternoon.

Los Angeles County has 200,000 unprocessed ballots - and that's not counting the 50,000 presidential votes it discarded because a quarter of the decline-to-state voters improperly marked the county's ballots.

Statewide, Weir said, most of the uncounted votes - about 600,000 - are absentee ballots turned in on election day. Still to be vetted, he reckons, are 400,000 provisional ballots, which typically are valid about 85 percent of the time.

He estimates 10,000 more uncounted ballots are damaged: shredded in the mail, mutilated in vote-counting machines, or gummed up by sloppy voters who dribbled coffee or ketchup on their absentee ballots. Election workers must pry them open, try to figure out the voter's intention, and then create a fresh ballot to feed into the machine.

No matter the obstacle, they're looking at a deadline of March 4 to have the results of the more than 7.1 million ballots cast in the state's presidential primary to California's secretary of state.

A question almost as big as the pile of ballots is what difference they might make in the national presidential race.

"It's not over till all the votes are counted," said Robert Stern, head of the nonpartisan Center for Governmental Studies based in Los Angeles. "To have a million votes not counted a week after the election is extraordinary, especially in an election when people wanted so much for their vote to count."

Stern has been keeping a sharp eye on the evolving situation in California. In the great hunt for Democratic Party delegates, he figures, all those uncounted California ballots probably will translate into a mere handful of the state's 370 delegates that are pledged to primary results - seven at most, in districts that were close to begin with (none of them in the Sacramento region).

But, with Hillary Rodham Clinton (who garnered 2.3 million votes in California) and Barack Obama (with 1.9 million votes) still battling for their party's nomination, every delegate is hard-fought. On Wednesday, the Associated Press calculated that Obama's delegate total stands at 1,275 to Clinton's 1,220.

Stern believes the uncounted votes won't change results for state propositions. Nor will they affect Republican primary results in California, since Mitt Romney's decision to drop out made John McCain the clear winner.

The national political scene is fluid and exciting, but down in the trenches, California election workers are slogging through a herculean task.

At Sacramento County election headquarters Wednesday, dozens of workers diligently dealt with the details: checking and double-checking signatures on absentee envelopes, validating write-in candidates (few were valid), deciphering mutilated ballots and carefully substituting clean ones.

Every ballot sent to a precinct must be accounted for. Even the empty absentee ballot envelopes - more than 80,000 of them - are documented, filed and saved for at least 22 months.

Nineteen-year-old Leticia Valdez sat at a big table, patiently checking mailed-in ballots to make sure precinct numbers were recorded correctly. She sorted out damaged ballots, including those with stray pen marks. She put write-ins in a separate pile, to be checked by teams of other workers.

Valdez, one of 100 temporary workers brought in for the count, said she was surprised to learn how rigorous this process is.

"I didn't know there were so many steps," she said. "I figured we marked a ballot, it went through a machine, and that was it."

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:25 pm
Re: mysteryman
blatham wrote:
real life wrote:
nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
But, you still didnt answer my original question.
Would you accept an swastika hanging in a McCain office because it wasnt an "official" office?

I think a Che flag is in bad taste, while a swastika is unacceptable. The difference may have something to do with the swastika referring to mass genocide across an entire continent, 6 million exterminated Jews, all that. Che Guevara may have been a ruthless and loathsome figure (and anyone who primarily associates Che with the romanticized movie image of this guy "studying medicine, travelling through South America, sympathizing with the impoverished" should read that thread) -- but come on, he was no Hitler.



oh.........so it's ok as long as he committed fewer[/u] murders than Hitler?

In that case, just about any criminal is ok, because few if any will ever equal the total #s Hitler was responsible for.

So, if Obama campaign offices feature pics of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, it's all good, eh?


Well, plus the odd 'n end here that it is entirely debatable whether Che's actions resulted in more murders than have the CIA's actions in Chile and elsewhere.

So here in my home, I have neither a Che poster nor an American flag.


This (above) is the fundamental expresion of the intellectual conflict we find ourselves faced with.

Sorry, but I cannot help but consider you an intellectual midget (at least as far as history goes) if you believe that Che posters are the propaganda equivalents of the American flag.

Hey, go on and plaster your walls with The Maple Leaf, because, as we all know, Canada is the greatest country on the earth - at least that's what the PA announcer told me at the last game at the old Toronto Maple Leaf Garden, while Scottish bagpipers marched across the ice.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:26 pm
Amigo wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
over my dead body!
I'll send you "Che" underwear that says "Si Se Puede" On the front and has The farm workers emblem on the back.


Hmmm. That actually doesn't soud half bad.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:33 pm
blatham wrote:
MM

My respect for you is already on thin ice. Please cease with the ridiculous "chicom". It makes you look like another cliche-for-brains freerepublic toadie.


MM - Do you really care how blatham regards you?

There are a few A2K icons and far less A2K sages. Blatham, in this case, would lay claim to membership in both groups.

Speak on brother and worry not about blatham's disregard.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:49 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
The only flag I have in my home is the one that was drapped over my father's coffin and presented to me a few months ago.

Do I win?


Only if you appreciate what that flag means

If you mock it or find it irrelevant, you lose.

Like it or not you live in this country.

If win and lose is measured by influence, you lose if you your consider Old Glory as anything but a positive symbol.

If you are happy remaining true to your personal beliefs, despite the fact that they lie under the moss growing around the tree of the USA, who can find fault with you?

My father passed away 8 years ago and I fully appreciate the emotional ties that survive death. Nevertheless, the fact that my father or your father died 8 years ago or 8 hours ago has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and, I'm sorry to say this, but you are are playing your father's death for your own rhetorical gain.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 12:02 am
Quote:
the fact that my father or your father died 8 years ago or 8 hours ago has absolutely nothing to do with this issue


Neither did the competiton over who had what flag or oldest piece of memorabilia in their house. That is the point that I was making.

Oh, and when I need you to lecture me about my patriotism, I'll call on you. Until then, please save it for someone who cares to hear it from you.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 03:44 am
Buck up, Butrflynet, and all you other Obama supporters...

This, I believe, can be taken only as GOOD NEWS to those of us who believe Obama is the best way to go in this presidential race. John Lewis, the Congressman who is a civil rights icon and has been solidly in Clinton's corner - has come over to Obama's side. He is now saying he would cast his vote as a superdelegate for Obama, in order to avoid the kind of destructive schism that might occur if the superdelegates resisted the clear wishes of the constituency.

I am overjoyed at this - Lewis was one of the main ones of the old guard of civil rights leaders who I was most discouraged about being in Clinton's corner. This is big, IMO.

Read about it here...
Edit: Link converted by Moderator as requested

(by the way to you more technically skilled, how do I shorten the length of a link, or change its name, to fit it in more conveniently?)
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 03:45 am
cicerone imposter wrote:


It's hopeless.


No, it isn't 'cause Obama-the-Wanna isn't going to be the next President of the US and this will be for our good as well as for Hussein Obama's own good.
0 Replies
 
 

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