Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 06:41 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
blatham wrote:
nimh wrote:
Thomas wrote:
For what it's worth, my own experience confirms this: For several months now, Obama was my second most favorite Democratic candidate, my number one being John Edwards. Now that Edwards is out of the race, Obama has moved up to #1, albeit by a fairly narrow margin. I think both Obama and Clinton would be good presidents, and my preference for Obama is only modest. Given these preferences, I would expect my views to attract about equal amounts of opposition. But that's not the case. I didn't keep notes about it, but I'm definitely getting more heat from Obama supporters. Not complaining, just comparing.


Echoing all of that. Very well said.


We few, we happy few, we band of brothers

Bunch of not-sufficiently-in-love-with-Obama foreigners! Go back to Foreignervania where you came from!


Very Funny.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 06:45 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
blatham wrote:
nimh wrote:
Thomas wrote:
For what it's worth, my own experience confirms this: For several months now, Obama was my second most favorite Democratic candidate, my number one being John Edwards. Now that Edwards is out of the race, Obama has moved up to #1, albeit by a fairly narrow margin. I think both Obama and Clinton would be good presidents, and my preference for Obama is only modest. Given these preferences, I would expect my views to attract about equal amounts of opposition. But that's not the case. I didn't keep notes about it, but I'm definitely getting more heat from Obama supporters. Not complaining, just comparing.


Echoing all of that. Very well said.


We few, we happy few, we band of brothers

Bunch of not-sufficiently-in-love-with-Obama foreigners! Go back to Foreignervania where you came from!


Hail! Hail! Foreignervania
We sing to your mountains
And your turnip cakes...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 06:45 pm
I must admit that I found Thomas's pomposities a mite ridiculous myself.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 06:50 pm
spendius wrote:
I must admit that I found Thomas's pomposities a mite ridiculous myself.


How could YOU possibly tell?? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 06:53 pm
mysteryman wrote:
sozobe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
And if he doesnt win either the nomination or the election?

Will you be as quiet as an extinct volcano?


I'd try, but I probably wouldn't be able to manage it. I'd be deeply disappointed. I've definitely prepared myself for that possibility, though.


I honestly hope he does beat Hillary and win the nomination.
Not because I am committed to any candidate yet, but I do think the contrast in campaigns and policies between him and John McCain will be very interesting to watch.

I have a fantasy idea about what I think a good ticket would be, but I know it wont happen.
If John McCain wins the presidential election, I would love to see him ask Obaba to be his VP.
I think that we would get the best of both worlds that way.
If Obama wins the presidency, I would love to see him name McCain as his VP for exactly the same reason.

But, I know that isnt going to happen, but I do wonder why not.
Is there some law somewhere that says the winner of the race cant ask the loser to be his or her VP?
If it could be done, I think it would be a winning combination because it would put the 2 highest vote getters, and the 2 that most people wanted to win, in the WH.
I would think everyone would be happy with that.


Used to be that way. John Adams was the America's first Vice President by virtue of coming in second in the race for President.

In 1804 we got the 12 Amendment which required the president and vice president to be voted for on seperate ballots. I don't why this can't result in the Presidential candidate of one party being elected as President, and the Vice Presidential candidate of the other party being elected as Vice President.

Gore - Cheney
Bush - Lieberman
Kerry - Cheney
Bush - Edwards

Bush - Lieberman might have worked out, but can you imagine the other pairings?

McCain - Obama or Obama-McCain might sound grand to you, but could you imagine Bush-Gore or Bush-Kerry? A great way to reduce the VP position to total irrelevance or a source for leaks.

It doesn't or it can't happen because of the electoral college system. As to specifically why, I don't know and will defer to others.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 07:28 pm
A preview of the general elections debate to come?

Quote:
In Victory Speech, Obama Trains Fire On McCain

Barack Obama just gave his victory speech, and he used the occasion to sharpen his argument that his clear contrast with John McCain on the war leaves him well positioned to beat him in November:

    When I am the nominee, I will offer a clear choice. John McCain won't be able to say that I ever supported this war in Iraq, because I opposed it from the beginning. Senator McCain said the other day that we might be mired for a hundred years in Iraq, which is reason enough to not give him four years in the White House. If we had chosen a different path, the right path, we could have finished the job in Afghanistan, and put more resources into the fight against bin Laden; and instead of spending hundreds of billions of dollars in Baghdad, we could have put that money into our schools and hospitals, our road and bridges - and that's what the American people need us to do right now. And I admired Senator McCain when he stood up and said that it offended his "conscience" to support the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy in a time of war; that he couldn't support a tax cut where "so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate." But somewhere along the road to the Republican nomination, the Straight Talk Express lost its wheels, because now he's all for them. Well I'm not. We can't keep spending money that we don't have in a war that we shouldn't have fought. We can't keep mortgaging our children's future on a mountain of debt. We can't keep driving a wider and wider gap between the few who are rich and the rest who struggle to keep pace. It's time to turn the page.


Oh, and I also still wanted to add: while looking at the results from Virginia come in, we watched the CNN.com live feed of Michelle Obama's speech in Wisconsin.

It was the first time I had heard her speak. Holy Moses, she is good.

I liked how she was able to be much stronger and sharper in terms of the critical notes she cracked in her speech than Obama can be. She was also - I dont know how to say that in a PC way - much blacker. It all kind of made me wish she were the candidate rather than him.

That's one smart and strong-minded and -willed woman. As smart and strong-willed as Hillary is. But she also struck me as honest and real, an unvarnished, sincere and genuine human being. Whereas Hillary often strikes me as fake, like everything she says is double-polled through and calculated to pander and manipulate in some way or other. So it's like Michelle Obama combines the best of both worlds.

Oh, and if I were impressed in a detached observer kind of way, Anastasia was actually carried away. Said it was the best election speech she'd heard so far this cycle.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 07:38 pm
"Hail! Hail! Foreignervania
We sing to your mountains
And your turnip cakes..."


Gotta learn it by heart.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 07:42 pm
Can anyone comment on Obama's Church?

Trinity United Church of Christ
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 08:54 pm
nimh wrote:

It was the first time I had heard her speak. Holy Moses, she is good.

I liked how she was able to be much stronger and sharper in terms of the critical notes she cracked in her speech than Obama can be. She was also - I dont know how to say that in a PC way - much blacker. It all kind of made me wish she were the candidate rather than him.

That's one smart and strong-minded and -willed woman. As smart and strong-willed as Hillary is. But she also struck me as honest and real, an unvarnished, sincere and genuine human being. Whereas Hillary often strikes me as fake, like everything she says is double-polled through and calculated to pander and manipulate in some way or other. So it's like Michelle Obama combines the best of both worlds.

Oh, and if I were impressed in a detached observer kind of way, Anastasia was actually carried away. Said it was the best election speech she'd heard so far this cycle.


Did you see the interview she did on Larry King Live? I actually sat through the whole interview, which I never do. Pretty much everything you say above was evident. I came away liking her and respecting him more for choosing her. She comes across as his equal in most every way.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 08:56 pm
Thomas wrote:

For what it's worth, my own experience confirms this: For several months now, Obama was my second most favorite Democratic candidate, my number one being John Edwards. Now that Edwards is out of the race, Obama has moved up to #1, albeit by a fairly narrow margin. I think both Obama and Clinton would be good presidents, and my preference for Obama is only modest. Given these preferences, I would expect my views to attract about equal amounts of opposition. But that's not the case. I didn't keep notes about it, but I'm definitely getting more heat from Obama supporters. Not complaining, just comparing.


You don't think this has something to do with the fact that there is just more discussion about Obama? You don't think, if there was a Hillary '08 thread, and you and I took our criticisms and concerns there, that people would respond to those and dispute our claims?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 09:09 pm
Well, Miller is pushing Hillary quite a bit. On the other hand, she might
do the Hillary discussions more harm than good Wink
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 09:20 pm
Well, that's a good illustration, actually. Her pushing of Hillary mostly involves talking about Obama.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 09:40 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
nimh wrote:

It was the first time I had heard her speak. Holy Moses, she is good.

I liked how she was able to be much stronger and sharper in terms of the critical notes she cracked in her speech than Obama can be. She was also - I dont know how to say that in a PC way - much blacker. It all kind of made me wish she were the candidate rather than him.

That's one smart and strong-minded and -willed woman. As smart and strong-willed as Hillary is. But she also struck me as honest and real, an unvarnished, sincere and genuine human being. Whereas Hillary often strikes me as fake, like everything she says is double-polled through and calculated to pander and manipulate in some way or other. So it's like Michelle Obama combines the best of both worlds.

Oh, and if I were impressed in a detached observer kind of way, Anastasia was actually carried away. Said it was the best election speech she'd heard so far this cycle.


Did you see the interview she did on Larry King Live? I actually sat through the whole interview, which I never do. Pretty much everything you say above was evident. I came away liking her and respecting him more for choosing her. She comes across as his equal in most every way.



I heard that Barack is taking a day off from campaigning tomorrow to spend Valentine's Day with Michelle.

Now that's love...
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 09:55 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
nimh wrote:

It was the first time I had heard her speak. Holy Moses, she is good.

I liked how she was able to be much stronger and sharper in terms of the critical notes she cracked in her speech than Obama can be. She was also - I dont know how to say that in a PC way - much blacker. It all kind of made me wish she were the candidate rather than him.

That's one smart and strong-minded and -willed woman. As smart and strong-willed as Hillary is. But she also struck me as honest and real, an unvarnished, sincere and genuine human being. Whereas Hillary often strikes me as fake, like everything she says is double-polled through and calculated to pander and manipulate in some way or other. So it's like Michelle Obama combines the best of both worlds.

Oh, and if I were impressed in a detached observer kind of way, Anastasia was actually carried away. Said it was the best election speech she'd heard so far this cycle.


Did you see the interview she did on Larry King Live? I actually sat through the whole interview, which I never do. Pretty much everything you say above was evident. I came away liking her and respecting him more for choosing her. She comes across as his equal in most every way.



I heard that Barack is taking a day off from campaigning tomorrow to spend Valentine's Day with Michelle.

Now that's love...


Or a good reason to take a much needed day off. It's sweet, but imeans little in terms of presidential qualifications.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 10:11 pm
jeez...
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 10:44 pm
Excluding the Potomac Primary results which may or may not be a sign that pre-existing trends have changed, the demographics behind the support for the two candidates appears to consistently break down as follows:

Clinton
Women
Hispanic
Low income
The Elderly
Voters w/o College

Obama
African-Americans
Affluent
Educated
Young
Churchgoers
Independents


Source

Source

Source

With the exception of African-Americans do Obama's demographics look like the classic Democratic constituency?

I hadn't really looked at it this way before, but think about it.

Quote:
"How can we have a nominee who can't win the votes of working-class people?" says one Clinton strategist. It's a good question.


Source

I certainly don't want to stake out positions for Nimh, blatham, and Thomas, but from what I've read of their postings, I have gotten the impression that they prefer (perhaps only slightly) Clinton over Obama, and initially I wondered why. It seemed to me that through the most objective of assessments I can muster, Obama is more liberal, leftist, progressive (whatever term you wish to employ) than Clinton, and maybe he is, but perhaps not by their sense of these terms. If he isn't appealing to the working class, how Left can he be? I even think this point is central to what they having been saying (ad nauseum) about the difference between the European and American Left. (I know, blatham is a Canadian, but I think his political sensitivities are more European that American (as in USA).

Admittedly I haven't given this notion as much though as I might, and all or anyone of them may tell me I am well off base, but it strikes me that I'm not.

In any case, if these demographics are at all accurate, and Obama goes on to win, then the turning point of his race against Clinton is very likely the Clintons' use of the race card. (Poetic justice I guess). Snood believes that Obama started seeing his support among black voters rise precipitously when he won Iowa and gave cautious African-Americans a reason to believe he was viable and could win. I disagree. I think the support surged when he became more identifiable as a black man through race based "attacks" by a white, Establishment candidate. If I am correct, then Clinton's tactic back-fired big time. The Clintons hoped that he would lose support among white voters even though he might gain support among blacks. As it seems to have turned out, he gained a lot of black support, but retained and even grew his level of white support thanks to the race card tactic, and this isn't really surprising. On balance, which demographic groups were more likely to be turned off by the use of the race card?

Hillary would be in a much better position right now if she had just ceded Obama his white support in the demographic groups he initially attracted, and did more to retain and increase her support among black voters. What a political miscalculation, and that it was based on cynicism makes it all the more sweet that it back-fired.

Unlike some of the Obama supporters on this thread I think it too early to crown Obama. Hillary is not about to give up, and someone in one of these linked articles commented, this is not the year to bank on conventional wisdom.

Even though the use of race card seems to have been a tactical mistake, perhaps another tactical mistake was to put a muzzle on Bill. Having jumped into the race card water their choice was to drag their soaked and dripping selves out or swim to the other side. They chose the former on the basis that they needed damage control, but the damage had already been done. Perhaps they should have kept on swimming. Maybe they have reached this conclusion. How else to explain this from Clinton supporter Ed Rendell in the lead-up to the crucial Pennsylvania primary

Quote:
"You've got conservative whites here, and I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate,"


Quote:
"I believe, looking at the returns in my election, that had Lynn Swann been the identical candidate that he was -- well-spoken, charismatic, good-looking -- but white instead of black, instead of winning by 22 points, I would have won by 17 or so."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 10:49 pm
Quote:
If I am correct, then Clinton's tactic back-fired big time. The Clintons hoped that he would lose support among white voters even though he might gain support among blacks. As it seems to have turned out, he gained a lot of black support, but retained and even grew his level of white support thanks to the race card tactic, and this isn't really surprising. On balance, which demographic groups were more likely to be turned off by the use of the race card?


You are correct!

Though polling did show a rise in AA support after Iowa, Bill's remarks were bad, bad strategy.

I can't say that I think letting him run wild would have been preferable - things could have gotten much worse!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 11:29 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Excluding the Potomac Primary results which may or may not be a sign that pre-existing trends have changed, the demographics behind the support for the two candidates appears to consistently break down as follows:

Clinton
Women
Hispanic
Low income
The Elderly
Voters w/o College

Obama
African-Americans
Affluent
Educated
Young
Churchgoers
Independents


Source

Source

Source

With the exception of African-Americans do Obama's demographics look like the classic Democratic constituency?

I hadn't really looked at it this way before, but think about it.

Quote:
"How can we have a nominee who can't win the votes of working-class people?" says one Clinton strategist. It's a good question.
I thought about it, briefly, and consider it a stupid question. There is no evidence (as in ZERO) that suggests that a nominated Obama can't win the votes of working-class people. Obama, Hillary... what's the difference to the average Democrat? Not much. But there appears to be a night and day's difference to the average Independent (to extraordinary independents too :wink:).

And good on America for recognizing Bill's bad behavior... if it really happened that way. Tough to say, really. It may well be as simple as more folks learned what Obama is about... and like it.

Over at Intrade, last I looked: Hillary fans can get about 4 to 1 on their money. I'm lovin it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 11:30 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If I am correct, then Clinton's tactic back-fired big time. The Clintons hoped that he would lose support among white voters even though he might gain support among blacks. As it seems to have turned out, he gained a lot of black support, but retained and even grew his level of white support thanks to the race card tactic, and this isn't really surprising. On balance, which demographic groups were more likely to be turned off by the use of the race card?


You are correct!

Though polling did show a rise in AA support after Iowa, Bill's remarks were bad, bad strategy.

I can't say that I think letting him run wild would have been preferable - things could have gotten much worse!

Cycloptichorn


I don't know that letting him run wild would have been better for her campaign, but has her fortunes gotten better or worse since he was muffled?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 11:45 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
If I am correct, then Clinton's tactic back-fired big time. The Clintons hoped that he would lose support among white voters even though he might gain support among blacks. As it seems to have turned out, he gained a lot of black support, but retained and even grew his level of white support thanks to the race card tactic, and this isn't really surprising. On balance, which demographic groups were more likely to be turned off by the use of the race card?


You are correct!

Though polling did show a rise in AA support after Iowa, Bill's remarks were bad, bad strategy.

I can't say that I think letting him run wild would have been preferable - things could have gotten much worse!

Cycloptichorn


I don't know that letting him run wild would have been better for her campaign, but has her fortunes gotten better or worse since he was muffled?


Well, they may have gotten worse much slower then otherwise.

Something else I've long maintained - bringing your husband or wife into the boardroom is rarely a good idea. Bill Clinton isn't running for prez; if he is showing up Hillary, it doesn't help her.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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