Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 07:04 am
Anyone else old enough to remember the Pogo cartoon from the 70's about Earth Day where Pogo and friend are looking over a trash-strewn field and Pogo says "We have met the enemy and he is us."?

With their recent campaign tactics, the Clintons have evolved into their own enemy.

It looks like a rehash of a lot of old articles...but skim it and read my comments, especially the last one.

Remember Hillary's comment in 1998 on the vast right-wing conspiracy against the Clintons?

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/01/27/hillary.today/


Quote:
Hillary Clinton: 'This Is A Battle'

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Jan. 27) -- First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton on Tuesday firmly denied allegations that her husband had an affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Mrs. Clinton blamed the sex allegations on a "a vast right-wing conspiracy" against President Bill Clinton.

She made the statement during an interview on NBC's "Today" show, where she was asked to comment on accusations and rumors that have caused a political uproar and even triggered speculation about the possibility of impeachment of the president.
"I do believe that this is a battle," the first lady said.

"Look at the very people who are involved in this. They have popped up in other settings. The great story here for anybody willing to find it, write about it and explain it is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for president," Mrs. Clinton said.

The first lady called the sex and perjury allegations swirling around her husband part of an effort "to undo the results of two elections."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/10/bill-clinton-lunches-with_n_72063.html


Quote:
Bill Clinton Lunches With Leader Of The "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy"
Newsweek | November 10, 2007 10:22 PM

Bill Clinton is never at a loss for company. When he's not globe-trotting or charming audiences for as much as $400,000 a speech, he's often schmoozing visitors in his suite of offices in Harlem. Last July, the former president sat down with a billionaire impressed with the William J. Clinton Foundation's campaign against AIDS in Africa. The two men chatted amiably over lunch for more than two hours, and the visitor pledged to write Clinton's foundation a generous check. But there was something unusual, if not plain weird, about the meeting. NEWSWEEK has learned that the billionaire so eager to endear himself to the former president was Richard Mellon Scaife--once the Clintons' archenemy and best-known as the man behind a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" that Hillary Clinton said was out to destroy them.

Scaife was no run-of-the-mill Clinton hater. In the 1990s, the heir to the Mellon banking fortune contributed millions to efforts to dig up dirt on President Clinton. He backed the Clinton-bashing American Spectator magazine, whose muckrakers produced lurid stories about Clinton's alleged financial improprieties and trysts. Scaife also financed a probe called the Arkansas Project that tried, among other things, to show that Clinton, while Arkansas governor, protected drug runners
.



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/10/nyregion/10hillary.html

Quote:
Strengthening a pragmatic rapprochement, Rupert Murdoch has agreed to give a fund-raiser this summer for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, the latest sign of cooperation between the conservative media mogul and the Democratic lawmaker who has often been a prime target of his newspaper and television outlets.

Asked about her relationship with Mr. Murdoch, Mrs. Clinton described him as simply "my constituent," and she played down the significance of the fund-raiser. Both sides said that Mr. Murdoch and Mrs. Clinton were joining forces for the good of New York, where Mr. Murdoch's $60 billion News Corporation employs about 5,000 workers.

"I am very gratified that he thinks I am doing a good job," Mrs. Clinton said in the Capitol on Tuesday, according to a transcript made available by her office after word of the fund-raising event was first reported by The Financial Times.

Although she is ostensibly raising money for her re-election to the Senate this year, she is widely considered to be laying the groundwork for a presidential bid in 2008.


Note that Rupert's son James and his wife now also work for the Clinton Foundation.


http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/31/the_nation_clinton_campaign_strategists_closely

Quote:
May 31, 2007

The Nation: Clinton Campaign Strategists Closely Tied to Union Busters, GOP Operatives, Conservative Media
A new expose in The Nation magazine finds that while Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is publicly trying to win support of unions in her presidential campaign, behind the scenes she is being advised by a team of strategists closely affiliated with unionbusters, GOP operatives and conservative media. We speak with the reporter who broke the story.

In campaign news, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton reached out to members of the Culinary Workers Union on Wednesday during a stop in Las Vegas.

The union represents casino and hotel workers. Senator Clinton said it should be easier for unions to organize and that private equity firms should honor union contracts after buyouts.

While Clinton is publicly trying to win the support of such unions, behind the scenes she is being advised by a team of strategists closely affiliated with unionbusters, GOP operatives, conservative media and other Democratic Party antagonists.


We now know the results of that advice about the Culinary Workers Union. It served to create a devisive internal split in that Union that they may not recover from. Is Hillary being gullible like she was back in 1998 when she was defending Bill before he fessed up or in her hunger for power is she allowing herself to be used by those people she warned us about in 1998 to further bust up the Democrat Party?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 07:55 am
I said somewhere recently that I liked the idea of Obama going on Oprah before Super Tuesday -- there's always good old YouTube:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=273806

Quote:
Great speeches don't matter if no one hears them. Barack Obama delivered a riveting speech about America's moral crisis this weekend, calling for a united movement to overcome the nation's moral deficit and mounting economic inequality. Political observers praised the address and reporters covered it -- 53 mentions in major papers -- yet it's been largely overshadowed by the escalating fight between Obama and The Clintons, which still dominates this week's media narrative. The candidates and reporters are focused on the fight, a defensible choice given both its impact and the undeniable news of a former U.S. President "spreading demonstrably false information," according to ABC News. But it turns out the public found Obama's speech anyway.

While cable news shows gorge on campaign sparring, Obama's uplifting speech is absolutely dominating YouTube. The 34-minute address from Ebenezer Baptist Church is currently the fourth most viewed video in the world on YouTube, trailing two Britney Spears clips. Not only is that unusual traffic for a long political address - people also like it. On Tuesday, viewers voted it the second most "favorited" video in the world. It also drew the second highest number of incoming links, a key indicator of web interest that drives Google page rankings.


Good!

I know it's likely to be young people who are already supporters of or leaning towards Obama, but still nice to see that kind of thing.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 09:04 am
www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama-rezko-clinton-080122,0,5430503.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout

chicagotribune.com
Obama-Rezko ties again at issue
By Bob Secter, David Jackson and Ray Gibson

Tribune reporters

12:57 AM CST, January 23, 2008

Excerpt (The article goes into a lot more detail):

Quote:
Suddenly, an old friendship forged on the streets of Chicago is threatening to make new waves in the Democratic presidential campaign.

Hillary Clinton's charge this week that Barack Obama represented a Chicago "slum landlord" in the 1990s introduced to a national audience one of Obama's potential political vulnerabilities: his long ties to Antoin "Tony" Rezko, the once-highflying developer soon to go on trial in federal court.

Obama angrily rejected Clinton's accusation at Monday's Democratic debate. And a Tribune review of land and court documents and law firm files as well as correspondence and other records related to Obama's eight years as an Illinois state lawmaker supports his contention that he did not directly represent Rezko's development firm. Instead, the records show, he represented non-profit community groups that partnered with Rezko's firm.

Beyond the heated sound bites is a story of a more complex relationship that long boosted Obama's political fortunes but now could prove a campaign liability.

For years after Rezko befriended Obama in the early 1990s, he helped bankroll the politician's campaigns. Then, after Obama's election to the U.S. Senate, Rezko engaged him in private financial deals to improve their adjoining South Side properties. Those arrangements became a source of lingering controversy after the Tribune first reported them in November 2006.

Now Rezko's federal corruption trial is scheduled to begin Feb. 25. As Obama stumps for votes, coverage of the high-profile proceedings could bring fresh, unwelcome reminders for Obama of Rezko's influence in the same Illinois political world that propelled the senator to a serious run at the presidency.

Both men declined to comment on their once-close friendship. Obama has been accused of no wrongdoing involving Rezko and has insisted that he never used his office to benefit Rezko.

Thus far, there is little in the public record to suggest otherwise, and the few exceptions that have come to light appear minor. On Capitol Hill, Obama once gave a summer internship to the son of a Rezko business associate on Rezko's recommendation. Earlier, as a state senator, Obama was one of several South Side political and community leaders who wrote state and city officials urging approval of public funding for a senior housing project involving Rezko.

But when Rezko pushed for passage in Springfield of a major gambling measure, Obama vocally opposed it.


Obama publicly apologized for his 2005 property deal with Rezko, calling it "boneheaded" because Rezko was widely reported to be under grand jury investigation at the time. And Obama has given to charities $85,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions, including $40,035 last weekend following a published report suggesting that Rezko funneled a $10,000 donation to Obama through a business associate. Aides to Obama say the senator had no knowledge of any such scheme.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 05:37 pm
nimh wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I disagree completely. I highly doubt that Hillary is winning vast numbers of women voters based upon her record or her life experience, as there is very little to differentiate her from Obama when it comes to that, not in the mind of the public.

It's far more likely that gender identity politics are to blame. I've seen proof of it all over in my life; I know many Republican women who speak well of Hillary, not that they like her policies, but that they would vote just to put a woman in the office.

I would lay money, that in any primary state, 80% + of voters - male or female - couldn't correctly identify Hillary or Obama's position on many issues or tell you what their past careers consisted of. But they still vote.


OK, bear with me here... the link is mostly associative, certainly not one of any kind of direct rebuttal. But I found the article that popped back up in my mind when I read c.i.'s and your post - it appeared on the day after Hillary's win in New Hampshire.

Not that there's anything in either of your posts that matches up 1:1 to this article. But it does seem to hit sort of a related note -- and b'sides, though it's not exactly consistently persuasive, it's an interesting article.


OK OK, one last P.S. on this convo... in the form of a joke.

This guy Stranahan - he posts fake campaign ads on YouTube. Dont worry, he's an equal opportunity satiriser, few candidates escape his take. But this one is on Obama - and those darned older women who prefer Hillary. I thought it was pretty funny Razz

Obama And Your Mama

"You support Obama because of his strong stand on net neutrality and his nuanced position on foreign policy. Your mom supports Hillary Clinton because she likes Hillary - plus, she's still pissed at your dad about that slutty waitress in 1979"
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 05:41 pm
Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 05:53 pm
I think there's a modicum of truth between that skit and my wife. LOL
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 23 Jan, 2008 06:27 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
Anyone else old enough to remember the Pogo cartoon from the 70's about Earth Day where Pogo and friend are looking over a trash-strewn field and Pogo says "We have met the enemy and he is us."?

With their recent campaign tactics, the Clintons have evolved into their own enemy.

It looks like a rehash of a lot of old articles...but skim it and read my comments, especially the last one.

Remember Hillary's comment in 1998 on the vast right-wing conspiracy against the Clintons?

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/01/27/hillary.today/


Quote:
Hillary Clinton: 'This Is A Battle'

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Jan. 27) -- First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton on Tuesday firmly denied allegations that her husband had an affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Mrs. Clinton blamed the sex allegations on a "a vast right-wing conspiracy" against President Bill Clinton.

She made the statement during an interview on NBC's "Today" show, where she was asked to comment on accusations and rumors that have caused a political uproar and even triggered speculation about the possibility of impeachment of the president.
"I do believe that this is a battle," the first lady said.

"Look at the very people who are involved in this. They have popped up in other settings. The great story here for anybody willing to find it, write about it and explain it is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for president," Mrs. Clinton said.

The first lady called the sex and perjury allegations swirling around her husband part of an effort "to undo the results of two elections."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/10/bill-clinton-lunches-with_n_72063.html


Quote:
Bill Clinton Lunches With Leader Of The "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy"
Newsweek | November 10, 2007 10:22 PM

Bill Clinton is never at a loss for company. When he's not globe-trotting or charming audiences for as much as $400,000 a speech, he's often schmoozing visitors in his suite of offices in Harlem. Last July, the former president sat down with a billionaire impressed with the William J. Clinton Foundation's campaign against AIDS in Africa. The two men chatted amiably over lunch for more than two hours, and the visitor pledged to write Clinton's foundation a generous check. But there was something unusual, if not plain weird, about the meeting. NEWSWEEK has learned that the billionaire so eager to endear himself to the former president was Richard Mellon Scaife--once the Clintons' archenemy and best-known as the man behind a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" that Hillary Clinton said was out to destroy them.

Scaife was no run-of-the-mill Clinton hater. In the 1990s, the heir to the Mellon banking fortune contributed millions to efforts to dig up dirt on President Clinton. He backed the Clinton-bashing American Spectator magazine, whose muckrakers produced lurid stories about Clinton's alleged financial improprieties and trysts. Scaife also financed a probe called the Arkansas Project that tried, among other things, to show that Clinton, while Arkansas governor, protected drug runners
.



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/10/nyregion/10hillary.html

Quote:
Strengthening a pragmatic rapprochement, Rupert Murdoch has agreed to give a fund-raiser this summer for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, the latest sign of cooperation between the conservative media mogul and the Democratic lawmaker who has often been a prime target of his newspaper and television outlets.

Asked about her relationship with Mr. Murdoch, Mrs. Clinton described him as simply "my constituent," and she played down the significance of the fund-raiser. Both sides said that Mr. Murdoch and Mrs. Clinton were joining forces for the good of New York, where Mr. Murdoch's $60 billion News Corporation employs about 5,000 workers.

"I am very gratified that he thinks I am doing a good job," Mrs. Clinton said in the Capitol on Tuesday, according to a transcript made available by her office after word of the fund-raising event was first reported by The Financial Times.

Although she is ostensibly raising money for her re-election to the Senate this year, she is widely considered to be laying the groundwork for a presidential bid in 2008.


Note that Rupert's son James and his wife now also work for the Clinton Foundation.


http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/31/the_nation_clinton_campaign_strategists_closely

Quote:
May 31, 2007

The Nation: Clinton Campaign Strategists Closely Tied to Union Busters, GOP Operatives, Conservative Media
A new expose in The Nation magazine finds that while Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is publicly trying to win support of unions in her presidential campaign, behind the scenes she is being advised by a team of strategists closely affiliated with unionbusters, GOP operatives and conservative media. We speak with the reporter who broke the story.

In campaign news, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton reached out to members of the Culinary Workers Union on Wednesday during a stop in Las Vegas.

The union represents casino and hotel workers. Senator Clinton said it should be easier for unions to organize and that private equity firms should honor union contracts after buyouts.

While Clinton is publicly trying to win the support of such unions, behind the scenes she is being advised by a team of strategists closely affiliated with unionbusters, GOP operatives, conservative media and other Democratic Party antagonists.


We now know the results of that advice about the Culinary Workers Union. It served to create a devisive internal split in that Union that they may not recover from. Is Hillary being gullible like she was back in 1998 when she was defending Bill before he fessed up or in her hunger for power is she allowing herself to be used by those people she warned us about in 1998 to further bust up the Democrat Party?


You believe she was gullible when she was defending her husband? You don't find it hard to believe that a woman when confronted with new evidence of her serial philandering husband's misadventures honestly chose to accept his denials at face value? I never imagined "being gullible" was a viable option for an explanation of her reaction.

But if we accept, for discussion's sake, that she truly was gullible, and conclude that she might be gullible as well in respect to the advice she is getting from these unnamed Democrat antagonists, is this someone we want as our president?

Surely, she is aware of the backgrounds of her advisors, at least to the point where she would recognize them as "unionbusters, GOP operatives, conservative media and other Democratic Party antagonists," or is it the suggestion that they have wormed their way into her counsels as undercover agents? And if she remained gullible and blind to them, surely her loyal advisors would be able to unmask them. Did it really take a crack team of reporters from The Nation to break through their disguises when no one else could?

So, if we safely assume that she is aware of the backgrounds of this group, and is not, herself, a Right-winger in Liberal clothing, then it follows that she expects to benefit from her association with them, even though they may advocate positions with which she privately and publicly disagrees. That they hope to benefit as well goes without saying, but that's a long way from "using her." I can believe Hillary uses people, but I can't believe anyone uses Hillary.

Perhaps she thinks she is more clever than they and that she can take their money and influence without a quid pro quo.

More likely you hit the nail on the head and it is her hunger for power that allows her to compartmentalize all sorts of nasty truths, and dismiss them all, individually and in the aggregate as necessary evils - the price that she has to pay so she can do so much good.

And what happens when all the compromises she has made with her conscious and her self-esteem so that she can win the throne, prove all for naught? What happens if she loses? She has sacrificed so much to be at this point that she will do anything to win the prize.

It's a perfect Shakespearean tragedy.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 08:06 am
Hi all,

Last night I read a post from nimh re: Hillary's vs. Obama's chances in the general election on the "polls" thread and wanted to respond but didn't have time -- snood followed up on it and nimh asked to not go into it there, so I'm taking it here.

This is off the top of my head and not all original -- some I know is not original, some is probably not original but I don't even know, but I'm not going to try to track everything down. If I can remember where it's from I'll note. Some of it is just me.

OK. So while I am very concerned about whether Obama can beat Hillary in the primaries, I think Obama has a better chance than Hillary in the general election. This is part of why I really want him to win the primaries. Several reasons.

Clinton fatigue. I just keep seeing this, here, IRL, and on blogs. Even people who really like Hillary get a little deflated at the idea of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton. It seems so damn un-American. And (to Obama's credit), Hillary has largely gotten a pass on the many things that could cause Clinton fatigue to flare up. This isn't about just "oh not again," as a general concept, but about specific things that the Clintons did that people don't want to think about or remember, OR that they are still angry about.

On a related note, but slightly different, there is the abundance of Clinton ammo Even if the Republican nominee also runs relatively cleanly, there is so so much ammo for third-party Swifboater-types. People who don't want a Democrat to win. Of course stuff is going to come out about Obama too -- I'm under no illusions that Republicans would just lay down and say "you seem like a nice guy, we won't say anything bad about you." But I think there is way MORE ammo, and way more resonant ammo, available against the Clintons (because ammo against Bill will affect Hillary too) than there is against Obama.

"We're gonna need a bigger boat." This is based on impressions from wide reading and isn't super scientific. But my distinct impression is that the Republicans would LOVE it if Hillary is the nominee, and are conversely freaked out at the idea of Obama winning. The quote above is from a Republican who went to an Obama rally. He watched how skillfully Obama did his stuff, how fired up the crowd was, and said, "Oh ****. We're gonna need a bigger boat." (Read that one in "The Daily Dish," it came from somewhere else though I think.)

The movement factor. This is another one I read but I don't remember where. It's about how Obama is both a movement and a viable campaign, and it's rare and potent to get both in the same package. Hillary's just a campaign. Obama is in danger of losing the movement momentum, and of course all of this (general election musings) is moot if he doesn't get the nomination. But if he does get the nomination, that's major movement time. He won! Can you believe it?! If he won the nomination, he can really win the general election! Wow!! Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that say amazing things about our country? Let's take our country back!!

Potent.

None of the Republicans have anything like that.

Negatives and wiggle room Hillary has high negatives. She did at the beginning, she still does, and the only direction they're going to go if she becomes the Democratic nominee -- and the main target for Republicans -- is up. (Up is bad.) Her negatives usually hover a few points below 50. Obama, on the other hand, has much lower negatives and much higher positives. His positives have stayed high as more and more people get to know him. His negatives will probably go up if he becomes the Democratic nominee. But he has a lot more wiggle room than she does. I think that's important.

Independents Independents are hugely important in general elections. Obama does way, way better than Hillary with Independents. He's making that a central part of his campaign. It's dangerous in the primaries, but potentially a winning strategy if he makes it to the general election. We see that with JPB and O'Bill here, we see that in polls. Independents like Obama. Independents don't like Hillary. I think we should listen to Independents.

I'll probably think of more later but those are the main things I thought of when I saw nimh's post yesterday.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 10:46 am
The End of the Obama Revolution
By Gabor Steingart in Washington

The euphoria is gone, the friendly fire has started: Barack Obama is suddenly looking less like a superstar and more like just another candidate. His message isn't hitting home with the three most important groups of voters: women, older Americans and blue-collar workers.

All of those people who've been dreaming of America's first black president now have to slowly wake up. It'll happen one day, hopefully, but not in this election. And perhaps his name will be Barack Obama. But that first black president will have a more mature personality than that which Obama, 46, can offer American voters today.

The senator from Illinois has now lost two primaries, losses that have turned the former superstar back into an ordinary candidate. And after the CNN debate on Monday night, one thing is clear: Obama is a candidate under friendly fire.

Hillary Clinton posed uncomfortable questions, which were aggressive and precise -- and as a result effective. Were there dodgy dealings in Chicago? Why did he support the Iraq war in the Senate, when he has always been against it? What exactly does he think on the issue of abortion?

A pop star who has to put up with such questions is no longer a pop star. To ask to be treated more fairly is a risky strategy for someone who is aiming at the top job in the western world. It's safe to say that Osama bin Laden isn't going to be any nicer.

Obama is down, but he's not out. At the moment, the similarities with Jesse Jackson, the black civil rights activist who ran for the Democratic presidential nomination twice in the 1980s, are greater than with former President John F. Kennedy. Jackson even managed to win 11 primaries in 1988.


Obama's campaign appearances are still energy-packed events, and he still manages to draw large crowds of supporters who routinely greet his words with applause, cheers and even tears. But it's even more interesting to note the kinds of people who are absent from the Obama crowds.

He hasn't managed to attract a strong following among older people and blue-collar workers. The majority of women find him interesting, but they support Hillary Clinton. The overwhelming majority of Hispanics are opposed to Obama, partly because he is black. Even African-Americans are not united in their support for Obama.

The Illinois senator's strongest advocates are young people and graduates, both groups where enthusiasm for Obama runs high. He is the candidate of the affluent and of society's winners. His message of hope and change seems to thrive in environments where people drink latte macchiatos and read the New York Times.

His idealism is contagious among those who expect more from politics than yet another tax cut and the next half-hearted Middle East peace initiative. His supporters love what they call "the vision thing," and they dream of a presidential election that will truly lead to groundbreaking change, of a revolution at the ballot box -- or at least something like it.

Obama is the candidate of the idealists. Only once in every couple of decades does someone come along who has the ability to deeply inspire this group, who are perhaps the most discerning voters of all. That fact alone makes him remarkable.

Obama also happens to be the candidate of choice for the foreign press, which explains why European correspondents tend to greatly amplify American voters' enthusiasm for him in their dispatches. Many in Europe would like nothing more than a "European" America. A former community organizer from Chicago seems to be the ideal candidate for all countries, especially Germany, in which public servants shape politics. Obama personifies Europe's hopes for a modern America: black, socially minded and gentle.

But this isn't what America looks like. And the evidence from the primaries so far suggests that it won't be what it looks like after the elections in November. At the center of society, the place where elections are won or lost in every democracy, Obama the candidate has not triggered the kinds of earthquakes that would be necessary to topple the status quo. The ground may be trembling, but it isn't shaking.

The deeper one penetrates into that all-important center of American society, the cooler are people's reactions to Obama. In places where work is hard and pay keeps shrinking, where the costs of education are rising and the fear of job losses has taken hold, Americans pay attention to him but don't support him. He may be touching the souls of blue-collar workers, but he hasn't been able to inspire them.

Low-income Americans have been especially reluctant to warm up to Obama. Hillaryland starts at annual household incomes of $50,000 or less. Even the endorsement of the biggest union in Las Vegas wasn't enough to convince the majority of union members to support Obama. America's lower-income citizens apparently prefer cash to change. They find his attacks on "Washington lobbyists" appealing, but not sufficiently concrete. Hillary Clinton's promise of universal health insurance for everybody strikes a different note among the country's lower-income working classes.


Obama also has trouble appealing to older Americans. In Iowa, 45 percent of voters over 65 voted for Clinton, while less than half as many preferred Obama. He was even less successful among older voters in Nevada, where close to two-thirds of Democrats over 60 voted for Clinton. Pollsters have noted the same pattern of aloofness to Obama throughout the country. Clinton's support within America's older population is twice as strong as Obama's. In a country where the old clearly outnumber the young, this doesn't bode well for Obama.

Among Hispanics, who in some states make up a larger contingent of voters than African-Americans, Obama has encountered strident resistance. Sergio Bendixen, a pollster working with the Clinton campaign, recently told the New Yorker: "The Hispanic voter -- and I want to say this very carefully -- has not shown a lot of willingness or affinity to support black candidates." Based on this logic, an Obama victory in South Carolina, where every second Democratic voter is black, would be more than offset by an Obama defeat in California, a much larger state that is dominated by whites and Hispanics. Staffers within the Clinton campaign are referring to the Hispanics as their firewall.

Obama has come too early for America -- or perhaps too late. In the 1990s, when the economy was doing well and Islamist terrorists had not yet appeared on the world stage, a man like Obama probably would have had stronger prospects. But tough times are bad times for visionaries.

All it takes to understand Clinton's appeal is to observe the way people react when she speaks with voters in small groups, as she recently did in a lecture hall on the campus of the University of Nevada. Hardly any college students were in the audience, but about 100 middle-aged women, some of whom had even dragged along their husbands, sat around the candidate on folding chairs.

Clinton told her audience about the hard work waiting for her in the White House, about responsibility and about her view of herself as a problem-solver. No one cheered, no one jumped up from her seat and there were no choruses of approval. But the women nodded quietly in response to Clinton's words. They didn't seem fired up, but they did feel understood.

Watching the group, I realized that perhaps this election isn't about visions at all, but about something even bigger: trust.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-530129,00.html
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:26 am
Gabor Steingart wrote:
But tough times are bad times for visionaries.
Rolling Eyes I'd like to hear Gabor explain this further (not). 100 old ladies, bored to tears, but nodding Vs. 3,000 energized folks from a greater slice of the demographic, shouting their approval. Steingart is more compelled by the former?

The Obama your Mama was a joke, and a funny one at that, but let me tell you a little something about my mama. From the time we were kids; She couldn't stand even to watch the news, let alone campaigns. Instead, she'd listen to my sister and I argue about it (guaranteed) and make up her mind from there. In later years, having generally always seen things my way; she just asked me who to vote for. She'd have had an easy time this primary season; on Nimh's test, Sis stuck the pencil in Obama's head. My point: It may well be old ladies that decide our elections, but they don't necessarily arrive at their conclusions in a vacuum.

Call your mother!
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:28 am
Clinton/?.... get used to it...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:33 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Clinton/?.... get used to it...



Like we have to with Bush? UGH!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 11:40 am
Shouldn't we have a president who we don't have to 'get used to?' Who we don't have to suck it up and deal with?

BPB, why do you have such a hard-on for Hillary anyways?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:07 pm
I think it has something to do with being confused about which ideas "whose time has come".

I don't think people are breathlessly waiting for another Clinton administration, but I think they detect fresh air and hope coming from Obama. Just an opinion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:24 pm
snood wrote:
I think it has something to do with being confused about which ideas "whose time has come".

I don't think people are breathlessly waiting for another Clinton administration, but I think they detect fresh air and hope coming from Obama. Just an opinion.


Spot on!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:28 pm
Many women will end up voting for Hillary; I think gender will have much to do with this election.

When Hillary accused Obama to have worked for a slum lord, that indicated to me she will lie to win. Her ethics is in question; and we've had enough liars in the white house. Desperation doesn't excuse her lies. Many women will not know the truth after she spoke out at the debate.
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nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:41 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Gabor Steingart wrote:
But tough times are bad times for visionaries.
Rolling Eyes I'd like to hear Gabor explain this further (not). 100 old ladies, bored to tears, but nodding Vs. 3,000 energized folks from a greater slice of the demographic, shouting their approval. Steingart is more compelled by the former?

The Obama your Mama was a joke, and a funny one at that, but let me tell you a little something about my mama. From the time we were kids; She couldn't stand even to watch the news, let alone campaigns. Instead, she'd listen to my sister and I argue about it (guaranteed) and make up her mind from there. In later years, having generally always seen things my way; she just asked me who to vote for. She'd have had an easy time this primary season; on Nimh's test, Sis stuck the pencil in Obama's head. My point: It may well be old ladies that decide our elections, but they don't necessarily arrive at their conclusions in a vacuum.

Call your mother


Good point. I haven't had time to factcheck his numbers on older voters going for Clinton, but am finding his thoughts on the Black/Hispanic racism is fairly accurate from what I've been able to google up so far.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:55 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Call your mother!

Ha! Very Happy

That reminds me of what happened during the last elections in Poland, late last year. There was a hilarious episode there (with serious enough undertones) - and in fact, there are perhaps more parallels than you'd think at first sight. Not so much politically speaking (Hillary and Obama are after all both liberals, with little difference in political platforms), but sociologically.

I think I posted an article about it here at the time... lemme look it up. Yes, here we are:

nimh wrote:
This is hilarious .. kudos to those kids for a sense of humour - and extra kudos to the small Peasants Party for jumping in so swiftly and with its own sense of humour Razz


Laughing

Actually, the article is really interesting, and encouraging - a wired and ironic new generation of young Poles is readying itself to counterbalance the prevailing conservative winds:

<snipped>


Read the whole thing - it's interesting!
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kickycan
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 01:04 pm
I don't understand why anybody still thinks Obama is even in this thing.

This new one-two punch of Hillary and Bill is too much for him. Bill goes out, spreads untrue allegations and innuendo about Obama, then when the press calls him on it, he gleefully lies some more and then reprimands the guy who asked him the question! He's turned into quite the pitbull, and if anything, he'll only get more aggressive. He has nothing to lose! Obama is dead in the water.

Hope for change works on Oprah, but it has no place in U.S. politics. We will get the same old **** we always get, because the game is stacked against new ideas and running a clean campaign. So don't worry, all this fresh air and hope will soon be buried underneath the stale stench of dirty politics, corruption, and the status quo.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jan, 2008 01:07 pm
kicky, That's because we allow it.
0 Replies
 
 

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