sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 06:33 pm
I know what you mean. He seems self-aware about it, and has even apologized -- someone wrote in after New Hampshire that it was precisely his brand of disdain for Hillary that brought a lot of women over to her side. He said he saw the writers point, and that he'd try to be more careful. And then he said this today, which makes sense to me:

Quote:
The way the Clintons are treating black leaders is very reminiscent to me of the way they have long treated gay people. When I'm asked by readers about the source of my emotional hostility to the Clintons, a lot of it does indeed go back to how they treated the civil rights issues of the 1990s. In some ways, I preferred the outright hostility of some on the religious right to the condescension and manipulation of the Clintons and their apparatchiks. I've never been able to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Which is why I am not in any way surprised by the racial issues they are now embroiled in. They treated the gays this way first.


At any rate, I've never been one to follow a certain blog -- I tend to just happen across stuff when researching, or else Google what I'm interested in and see where it takes me. Lately, it kept taking me to the Daily Dish -- like, over and over again -- so I finally gave up and bookmarked it. Definitely a good source of info, I take the commentary with a grain of salt.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 07:06 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This is unfair. I've never claimed that she didn't have years of experience working in the gov't, or that she hasn't been active and involved; the question was, what has her work amounted to?

As in, what exactly has she accomplished? What has she done? What leadership? What has changed because of her work?

Hm.. well OK, I didnt read it like that. I mean, Okie wrote, "has anyone yet figured out what those 35 years of experience amounted to?," and you answered, "not me!" That seemed pretty short shrift to me for someone who did work her ass off for good causes for decades.

But, OK.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
What did those years of experience amount to? What came out of them? It isn't clear, the wikipedia article certainly doesn't make it clear. [S]he should have a list of accomplishments to point to. I don't really see such a list.

Is that fair though? I mean, that kind of yardstick works for legislative work. What bills did she author? What support did she rally for them? Did any of 'em pass?

But how does that work with her decades of advocacy work? I mean, she took on cases of child abuse at a hospital. She researched migrant workers' problems in housing, health and education for Senator Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor. As a lawyer, she worked pro bono in child advocacy. She co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families. How do you quantify that kind of work? By what measure stick can you declare, OK, but I dont see a list of accomplishments?

I mean, I've worked for about eight years in NGOs now, as lowly project staff of course, but still, working on projects for a minority organisation, working on websites, that kind of thing. But if you'd come up to me and ask, OK, so "what has changed because of your work?", dude - I couldnt say. But I did work my ass off at times, and I think it was good for something...

With Hillary (and Obama!) it's on a whole other level of course, but isnt the dilemma the same? Someone works for years in advocacy, sometimes succeeding in changing some thinking, in paving the ground for new policies perhaps, in signalling problems, in bringing a case to court in collaboration with a team of other people - years of worthy work, but yeah. You can still say, so - you, specifically - what has changed because of your work? List of accomplishments?

But aside from all that, it's also not true that there's no concrete accomplishments in the Wikipedia article. Here, just skimming it I find these, from early days to important-person-days:

  • Her first scholarly paper, "Children Under the Law", was published in the Harvard Educational Review and became frequently cited.
  • She was a member of the impeachment inquiry staff advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal, helping to research procedures of impeachment and the historical grounds and standards for impeachment. The committee's work culminated in the resignation of President Nixon.
  • During her time as chair of the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.
  • As chair of the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place.
  • She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth, which helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.
  • As chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, she induced the association to adopt measures to combat gender bias in the law profession.
  • She pushed successfully for Wal-Mart to adopt more environmentally-friendly practices.
Now you can argue about one or the other of these accomplishments - her time at Wal-Mart may have done more harm than good, for example. And it goes without saying that none of these bullet points qualify someone for the Presidency. But they are concrete accomplishments - bullet points in a list of accomplishments representing 35 years of work. So to brush it off as, I dont know what all that amounted to, just doesnt seem fair...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 08:29 pm
Thanks for the detailed response.

I guess what I mean is, in what way does that work prepare her for the challenges of running the gov't, IE, leadership experience?

It's fair to say that her experience is comparable to Obama's, if what we are talking about is organization, working for good causes, and experience dealing with gov't on different levels. She has a natural advantage in that she is considerably older than he is, but supposedly she is 'ready to go on day one' while he won't be.

What has she done that makes her especially ready to lead, whereas Obama hasn't done those things? I see one highlight, which I didn't know before actually -

# During her time as chair of the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

-- that's good stuff. Most everything else, isn't materially different then Obama's experience; so when I hear her say 'I'm ready to lead, and he isn't,' I want to know exactly what makes this true; and I haven't really been able to figure it out.

Let me say that I've listened to many of her speeches over the last year, and also read some articles she's written; and I must say that even if she has the different experience, it hasn't really been communicated well.

Lots of assertions of experience, though. I guess for most people that's enough.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:38 pm
May I add just a couple more items to her resume.

She was in charge of quelling all of the bimbo eruptions during those 8 years in the White House.

She finally found the Rose law firm records that magically appeared in her office.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:47 pm
I forgot a big one that I learned about today. The great management skills of Ms. Clinton during her health care program work. Judicial Watch reports that spying on people opposed to her health care program was probably more important than spying on potential terrorists.

"The memorandum suggests that Hillary Clinton "use classic opposition research" to attack those who were excluded by the Clinton Administration from Task Force deliberations and to "expose lifestyles, tactics and motives of lobbyists" in order to deflect criticism. Senator Rockefeller also suggested news organizations "are anxious and willing to receive guidance [from the Clinton Administration] on how to time and shape their [news] coverage.""

Why are these people even allowed the light of day in the Democratic Party?

This should be a bombshell in the news, but of course it isn't. Not only for what it reveals the administration was up to, but also for the apparent collusion by the news organizations. This is downright criminal, and this should be front page news.

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/01/18/the-hillary-health-care-papers/
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:51 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What has she done that makes her especially ready to lead, whereas Obama hasn't done those things?

Oh, I dont have a beef with this argument - I agree with the complaint that she doesnt have a whole lot of reason to say she's much more experienced than Obama. I mean, yeah - 25 years, 35 years - like O'Bill said, you can argue about the relevance about that sort of distinction. And the Obama campaign certainly should.

What got my gander up really was only these off the cuff remarks - and I only used your line as example because it was the last one I'd seen - about, whats those 35 years, does anyone know what she's talking about?, what was she ever other than the wife of, etc. That, and Noah's contention that she was a total fraud for claiming 35 years of experience, a contention he could only make by inserting the adjective "government" into her claim himself.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:53 pm
She uses the language of politicians. I think we can be assured that most Americans now know that Hillary has "35 years of experience.'
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 06:15 am
I was just watching an Obama rally in Las Vegas on C-Span. One of the parts of his talk that I liked was when he talked about how, after spending too much time in Washington, you begin to forget how to speak English (or even Spanish). You begin to talk "WashingtonSpeak".

That's why, when he was asked to tell one personal weakness during the last televised debate, he shared that he was very disorganized, paperwork-wise. He said that his desk was constantly a mess, and that he had to have a person who was hired specifically to manage that type of thing. His opponents in turn told that their weaknesses were "too much passion to help the poor", and "impatience to bring about the change America needs".

The difference between English and WashingtonSpeak. Beautiful.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 06:45 am
snood wrote:
I was just watching an Obama rally in Las Vegas on C-Span. One of the parts of his talk that I liked was when he talked about how, after spending too much time in Washington, you begin to forget how to speak English (or even Spanish). You begin to talk "WashingtonSpeak".

That's why, when he was asked to tell one personal weakness during the last televised debate, he shared that he was very disorganized, paperwork-wise. He said that his desk was constantly a mess, and that he had to have a person who was hired specifically to manage that type of thing. His opponents in turn told that their weaknesses were "too much passion to help the poor", and "impatience to bring about the change America needs".

The difference between English and WashingtonSpeak. Beautiful.


Snood, the only difference I see, is the way they speak. She harps and he's soft spoken. She's visibly shaken by the rise of Obama and instead of looking gracious, she comes off as "entitled", for all the reasons, she's mentioned. This is what's happens when the "feminist" feel THEY are entitled, over someone who has "overcome", in spite of the "stereotypes and labels", attributed to Blacks in general. Now THEY come off looking like bigots! The "How dare you, after all WE'VE done for you", attitude! BAAAAAD! Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:04 pm
NV caucuses close in only an hour! I had no idea.

<nibbling fingernails>
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:23 pm
http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003699289

Quote:



http://www.sacbee.com/110/v-print/story/646229.html

Quote:
The Bee Recommends: Obama
He could bridge political divides
-
Published 12:00 am PST Saturday, January 19, 2008
It is beginning to look as if the Democratic Party will break historic barriers this year no matter how the party's contest for the presidential nomination concludes. If the nominee is Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York or Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, as seems likely, either a woman or an African American will be a major party's nominee for the first time.

The two leading candidates give California Democrats and independents voting Feb. 5 an interesting choice. Both have been senators for a relatively short time, but both also have other attributes that give them unique perspectives on the country and on the job they seek.

As first lady for eight years, Clinton served as a serious policy adviser to the president, not only on health care, where she famously failed, but on other matters as well. On free trade and reforming welfare, she and Bill Clinton faced down their friends and allies to do what was right, and Hillary Clinton is still paying the price today with some in the left wing of her party.

The Clinton years were tainted by scandal, and Hillary Clinton took her share of hits for those problems. Some were deserved; some were not. Dealing with the constant accusations no doubt toughened her. That toughness is one thing we admire most about her.

But those battle scars are also evidence of a troubling trend in American politics that would likely only intensify if Clinton were to become president. Since her husband's first term, politics has become increasingly polarized, the partisan fights more brutal. The Clintons have been both aggressors and victims in those wars.

Barack Obama, in contrast, would be a fresh face with a new approach and no old scores to settle. His ascension would represent a clean break with the generation that has fought and re-fought the Vietnam War and the cultural upheavals that wracked the 1960s.

As a former community organizer, civil rights lawyer and state legislator, Obama is familiar with real issues people face, and he has worked to solve them on the ground. As president, he says, he would cross party lines to find solutions to the nation's most vexing problems, from health care to global warming. There is reason to believe he could do that. His inspiring personal story and his communications skills could nudge Americans of all ages, but especially the young, to give more of themselves to aid the less fortunate in their communities.

Unlike Clinton, Obama was an early opponent of the war in Iraq, because he thought it was a strategic blunder that would only hurt the United States. His credibility on that issue would position him well to end the occupation quickly while also giving him the flexibility to extend it if necessary to avoid shedding the blood of more innocent Iraqis.

Obama's lack of experience at the highest levels of government might lead to mistakes. But that risk is smaller, in our view, than the benefit of moving on from the Bushes and the Clintons, who have been in the White House for longer than some young voters have been alive. That is why Obama is the best choice for the Democratic nomination for president.

0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:33 pm
Thought you all might be interested in this email that is being sent around to people in Nevada and California. Funny how the ebb and flow of all these various emails coincides with each state's primary vote date.

Your thoughts?




Quote:
Below are a few points for those of you who are considering voting for Obama as the Democratic candidate to pursue the Presidency. Please read and consider these points thoroughly before casting your vote:

1. Obama is a Diversion;

2. Over the last two years, the large powerful conservative new agencies owned by influential Republicans have purposely given Obama either neutral or positive news reporting in his run for presidency, amplifying his exposure and ratings amongst Democrats;

3. The neutral/positive news reporting of Obama has split Democrats in choosing between Clinton or Obama as the Canidate to run for President;

4. The conservative news agencies and powerful Republicans politicians are trying to manipulate the Democrats to choose Obama to run for President;

5. When Obama is chosen to run for President, the conservative news agencies will turn on Obama by inciting (through negative reporting) the fears of Americans, and the Presidency will go to a Republican candidate; so

6. Please do not be manipulated and vote for Clinton. Democrats should unite together behind Clinton or else the Republicans will literally steal the presidency.

Obama and Clinton should unite or Obama should step down to ensure a Republican is not elected to teh presidency.

This is in no way anti-Obama. (Bless you Obama for running; however unfortunate the timing, considering the above).

The point of the above is to make us Democrats aware. We dealt with very similar manipulation the last eight years (remember Karl Rove?) and need to wake up.

There is much at stake to let the powerful Republican politicians manipulate our vote. This is no means an attack on Republican citizens or Obama supporters, and much respect to you. Please consider the above points.

SPREAD THE WORD, EMAIL, TEXT MESSAGE AND BLOG TO OTHER DEMOCRATS.

0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:51 pm
Live results from Nevada are being posted here:

http://www.nvdems08.com/
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:54 pm
Thanks, Butrflynet.

Current results are certainly pretty! (100% Obama.) Hope it's indicative, but my hopes aren't terribly high.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:56 pm
75/25 Obama/Clinton now with .23% in.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:04 pm
Senator Barack Obama: 45.83%
Senator Hillary Clinton: 41.67%
Senator John Edwards: 8.33%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 4.17%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%
Uncommitted: 0%


1.13% precincts reporting



Senator Barack Obama: 54.55%
Senator Hillary Clinton: 36.36%
Senator John Edwards: 6.06%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 3.03%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%
Uncommitted: 0%


(I'll keep editing this post unless someone posts after it.) Looks like it is going to tease us like the ball in a roulette wheel until it lands.

Being able to watch it live on a website sure beats having to listen to talking heads massage their egos for several hours.
Senator Barack Obama: 49.3%
Senator Hillary Clinton: 46.48%
Senator John Edwards: 2.82%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 1.41%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%
Uncommitted: 0%


3.01% reporting



Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.61%
Senator Barack Obama: 42.68%
Senator John Edwards: 5.49%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 1.22%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%
Uncommitted: 0%


5.1% reporting


Senator Hillary Clinton: 47.23%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.65%
Senator John Edwards: 6.27%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 1.11%
Uncommitted: 0.74%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


6.86% reporting

Senator Barack Obama: 45.85%
Senator Hillary Clinton: 45.54%
Senator John Edwards: 7.08%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.92%
Uncommitted: 0.62%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


8% reporting


Senator Hillary Clinton: 47.8%
Senator Barack Obama: 45.15%
Senator John Edwards: 5.95%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.66%
Uncommitted: 0.44%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


10.21% reporting


Senator Hillary Clinton: 48.62%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.66%
Senator John Edwards: 6.06%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.4%
Uncommitted: 0.26%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%

13.84% reporting


Senator Hillary Clinton: 49.78%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.78%
Senator John Edwards: 5%
Uncommitted: 0.31%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.13%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


28.64% reporting

Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.2%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.49%
Senator John Edwards: 4.96%
Uncommitted: 0.25%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.09%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%

37.15% reporting


Looks like Clark County (Las Vegas) is going for Clinton and Washoe County (Reno) going for Obama and all the other counties are mixed.

Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.09%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.59%
Senator John Edwards: 5.03%
Uncommitted: 0.23%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.06%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


50.54% reporting
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:54 pm
Ouch. Big Hillary jump -- the nvdems08 site had it well before CNN did. Now nvdems has a much narrower margin (less than 4 pts) than CNN (10 pts), but it's still a pretty big lead.

Still nibbling those fingernails... I know it's early yet.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:58 pm
Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.43%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.76%
Senator John Edwards: 4.55%
Uncommitted: 0.21%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.05%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


60.35% reporting

Wow, Obama is winning in just about all the other counties. The results in Clark County are what is offsetting it and saving Clinton.


Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.43%
Senator Barack Obama: 44.97%
Senator John Edwards: 4.32%
Uncommitted: 0.23%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.05%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


73% reporting

Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.16%
Senator Barack Obama: 45.14%
Senator John Edwards: 4.42%
Uncommitted: 0.22%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.06%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


68.29% reporting

Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.37%
Senator Barack Obama: 45.12%
Senator John Edwards: 4.21%
Uncommitted: 0.25%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.05%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


75.16% reporting


Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.32%
Senator Barack Obama: 45.26%
Senator John Edwards: 4.14%
Uncommitted: 0.23%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.05%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%


79.01% reporting


Not looking good.


Senator Hillary Clinton: 50.5%
Senator Barack Obama: 45.31%
Senator John Edwards: 3.89%
Uncommitted: 0.26%
Congressman Dennis Kucinich: 0.04%
Senator Mike Gravel: 0%

84.46% reporting
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 03:41 pm
Phooey. Not unexpected, except for Edwards' distant third -- I thought he would do better than that. But phooey.

On to SC...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jan, 2008 03:51 pm
Sorry guys..

So Obama won in Reno, and Hillary in Vegas.. isnt that the opposite of what would have been expected, what with the culinary workers union being for Obama and stuff?

Yeah, Edwards.. 4% of the delegates... I'm sure he got more in the first show, but apparently he fell below the 15% viability bar most everywhere.. (if it is 15%, like in Iowa)
0 Replies
 
 

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