cjhsa
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:34 am
Brand X wrote:
McCain especially, if he emerges, would easily beat Obama.

I think this scenario will look more likely in the near future although I hope Edwards somehow gets the nomination.


A war hero vs. a gun grabbing Illini man with an Islamic name. Hmm.

If the latter wins, we're all in trouble.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:36 am
I've said previously that I plan on voting in the Republican primary in IL. There's no way that Obama needs my support here and I'd rather put my vote to use on the Republican side. So now I'm thinking about Huckabee vs McCain. One so that this country can have a true referendum on a theocracy in November and the other because I think he's the most viable (electable) candidate.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:36 am
JPB wrote:
Yeah, Obama vs McCain would be a big decision for me. I think O'Bill has mentioned similar thoughts. A couple years ago I would have leaned towards McCain, today I'm leaning Obama, by November ???


I began to get soured on McCain two years ago... http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=69091&start=0
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:38 am
cjhsa wrote:
Brand X wrote:
McCain especially, if he emerges, would easily beat Obama.

I think this scenario will look more likely in the near future although I hope Edwards somehow gets the nomination.


A war hero vs. a gun grabbing Illini man with an Islamic name. Hmm.

If the latter wins, we're all in trouble.


You poor bastard. A bleak and horrible future awaits you just around the corner. Where are you going to move this time?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:39 am
Thomas wrote:
JPB wrote:
MSNBC was saying that this is the first true non-imbumbancy election in 80 years. I'm not sure how they are defining that, but maybe that's the source of the excitement.

I heard this line on MSNBC too. What they mean is that this is the first presidential election in 80 years where no party has a sitting president or a sitting vice president running.

Although I'm pretty sure that's what they were saying, it isn't so. The last election with no sitting president or vice president was 1948 (Stevenson (D) vs. Eisenhower (R)). Perhaps they were confusing "60" and "80".
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:53 am
I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries, and there's still a lot of residual respect. But his war position is really hard to stomach for me.

I don't know which primary I'll vote in, I'll have to wait and see what things look like here.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:56 am
sozobe wrote:
Well, then you weren't responding to FreeDuck's quote, here.

Oh fer chrissakes. Yes, I was responding to FreeDuck's quote. I was merely taking another variable into consideration.

To be sure, yes, in the primary polls Hillary has been leading in all the non-early primary states but that in itself doesnt say much, since people there just havent paid much attention. Those numbers will change now. Plus, as you say, a lot of black voters have been hesitant to choose for Obama because they were afraid a black man would be unelectable. That last dynamic especially will change too, as they are encouraged and dare to switch to Obama. That should show up in SC especially, and lead to a surge in Obama support and a drop in Hillary support.

But we were talking about whether Edwards would still have a chance to get back in the race thanks to the South.

FreeDuck said she thought he might - at the cost of Hillary, natch, not Obama. And I'd love to believe it. But what Hillary's surprisingly positive match-up numbers against the Republicans in the South tell me is that she might have an unexpectedly broad appeal in those states. Broader than Obama's, in fact, and the difference almost certainly lies among white voters. And if white voters are receptive enough to the idea of Hillary as President for her to outdo Kerry's election result there even more, clearly more, than in the rest of America, that tells me that the South wont be helping much to knock her out of the primaries. It tells me that between her and Obama, the region doesnt offer Edwards much of a chance.

But I'd love to be proven wrong of course.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 08:58 am
sozobe wrote:
As long as he loses though I'd be happy to have him be the Republican nominee -- certainly entertaining. :-)

Thats for sure Razz

And he is sort of a nice guy, in comparison with the others (minus McCain), anyway, not one of those ruthless apparatchiks.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:02 am
For Bill Bennett, the great and historic breakthrough which Obama's win marks, is that Obama has broken through and become white...
Quote:
For sheer awkwardness Thursday night, conservative radio host, moralist and gambler Bill Bennett -- who has previously gotten in trouble for insensitive racial commentary -- surely took the booby prize. You could almost feel CNN's producers and hosts cringing along the audience when Bennett said this:

"Barack Hussein Obama, a black man, wins this for the Democrats.

"I have been watching him. I watched him on "Meet the Press," I've watched him on [Anderson Cooper's] show, watched him on all the CNN shows -- he never brings race into it. He never plays the race card.

"Talk about the black community -- he has taught the black community you don't have to act like Jesse Jackson, you don't have to act like Al Sharpton. You can talk about the issues. Great dignity. And this is a breakthrough. And good for the people of Iowa."
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/?last_story=/politics/war_room/2008/01/04/bennett/

I wonder who Bennett will gamble on?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:04 am
OK, thanks for explaining the jump.

I see what you're saying, not sure if I agree or not. I think that there could still be a heavy element of voters wanting to back a winner, and considering Hillary more of a winner than Edwards or Obama. I think that could easily have a lot to do with what white people see black people saying or thinking about it. If the BLACK southern people are going for Hillary over Obama, that would send a message that Obama doesn't have a real chance. As in, I think that the snowball could easily affect Hillary's chances in general election match-ups, too.

But we'll see!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:10 am
snood wrote:
This from a blog by Joseph Palermo:

There is the audacity of hope that the Democratic Party might, after all it's suffered in recent years, has the good sense NOT to nominate another mealy-mouthed "moderate" who will "triangulate" against the grassroots base of the party. The simple fact is that President Bill Clinton left the Democratic Party in far worse shape when he left the White House than it had been in when he entered. Hillary Clinton promises more of the Rahm Emanuel-type betrayal of the progressive wing of the party. [..] We are light years past that being a desirable outcome for our nation today.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's debatable whether Bill left the party worse off, but not that Democrats are past needing someone to slyly "triangulate", and play the center. Down with billary. Go Obama, Go!

Hi Snood,

That blog item sounds good to me... But the only thing I dont get is the conclusion that it's Obama who's then the better choice. He seems just as much a "moderate" to me.

You think Obama is not "playing the center"? He's the one who's getting most of the Republican and Indy cross-over vote, while it's Hillary whose basis is firmly Democrat. Hillary's the one talking about "turning up the heat" on the corrupt Republican power machine that's deeply entrenched itself in politics, society and economy this last decade, while Obama is all bipartisanism and sitting at the table with all the stakeholders.

How does that play out? Do you think his promises to champion bipartisanism are just electoral strategy? Or do you think one can be at the same time the more agressive champion of progressive causes and be the man working across the aisle bringing the nation together? But the key question then is, how would he be going to wrest clear progressive policy from broad bipartisan coalitions? By the power of charisma?

Sorry to sound confrontative, but that's what puzzles me about the fervor of progressive Obama believers; it's like they believe he's such a unique person, he'll be able to square the circle.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:15 am
sozobe wrote:
I see what you're saying, not sure if I agree or not. I think that there could still be a heavy element of voters wanting to back a winner, and considering Hillary more of a winner than Edwards or Obama.

You could be right.. I hope so. If that's the main underlying motivation, then she might just collapse altogether, and Edwards might squeeze back in again. I dont think it's likely, but it would certainly be nice...

Only thing though: why would the voters in the South have been especially sensitive to the Hillary-as-winner appeal? She outdoes Kerry's 2004 result in the polls pretty much across the board as long as the Republican isn't McCain, but she does so in an especially elevated way in the South, in particular the borderlands (VA, KY, TN, MO, AR). Why there?

(Well thats a bit off-topic I guess..)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:19 am
Holy mackeral andy...
http://specials.slate.com/futures/2008/democratic-presidential-nominee/
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:20 am
nimh wrote:
but she does so in an especially elevated way in the South, in particular the borderlands (VA, KY, TN, MO, AR). Why there?

Sorry, I meant to add, "And why would the difference between how she and Obama fare be especially pronounced there?

I'm thinking racism, but I might be too pessimistic, and the data set is narrow..."
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:27 am


Whoa nelly!

(Who the heck is Brian Schweitzer.)

Nimh, dunno. I could see it being racism but in a different way from what you might be thinking. Basically a variation of what I already said. Black people, having experienced significant racism in the south, think that there's no way the people around them would ever elect a black man as president. They therefore back Hillary instead. White people see that black people aren't even supporting Obama, so obviously he doesn't have a chance. Etc.

But I come back to eoe's point. Is the racism in the south really so much worse than elsewhere? Dunno.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:27 am
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
JPB wrote:
MSNBC was saying that this is the first true non-imbumbancy election in 80 years. I'm not sure how they are defining that, but maybe that's the source of the excitement.

I heard this line on MSNBC too. What they mean is that this is the first presidential election in 80 years where no party has a sitting president or a sitting vice president running.

Although I'm pretty sure that's what they were saying, it isn't so. The last election with no sitting president or vice president was 1948 (Stevenson (D) vs. Eisenhower (R)). Perhaps they were confusing "60" and "80".

Ike versus Stevenson wasn't 1948, it was 1952. Truman ran against Dewey in 1948.

Some commentators are saying that, because Truman ran in the primaries in 1952 but withdrew from the race after a poor showing in New Hampshire, there was an incumbent president running in that election. So we have to look back to 1928 for an election where there was no incumbent president or vice-president running at all. If we're just focusing on the general election, the last one without an incumbent president or vice-president was 1952.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:32 am
Quote:
(Who the heck is Brian Schweitzer.)


LOL... I have no idea.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:37 am
nimh wrote:

Only thing though: why would the voters in the South have been especially sensitive to the Hillary-as-winner appeal? She outdoes Kerry's 2004 result in the polls pretty much across the board as long as the Republican isn't McCain, but she does so in an especially elevated way in the South, in particular the borderlands (VA, KY, TN, MO, AR). Why there?

(Well thats a bit off-topic I guess..)


I'm having a tough time coming to the conclusion that she does particularly better in the South mostly because there are a few southern states missing from the graph (SC,LA,MS) and some that are there do not have complete results for both candidates (NC,TX,AR,TN). But I'll hazard a guess anyway that it has something to do with how far off the primaries are for some of these states. When you call up someone who hasn't really been paying attention to the campaigns and ask them who they'll vote for, I think it's likely that they choose a name they know.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:39 am
sozobe wrote:

But I come back to eoe's point. Is the racism in the south really so much worse than elsewhere? Dunno.


Worse? No. But more pervasive, I think so. I'm willing to be wrong on that, though.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 4 Jan, 2008 09:41 am
That's what I'd tend to think, but this intrigued me:

eoe wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
but I think there is a big difference between Iowa and Alabama, if you know what I mean.


Actually, there isn't much difference at all.


Care to expand, eoe? I know you've lived in both Chicago and Atlanta...
0 Replies
 
 

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