Yeah. I'm cautiously... VERY cautiously... optimistic. So much could go kerflooey between now and then.
If we get into that territory, though, i.e. that either Hillary or Obama could do it, I'd much, much prefer Obama.
Sigh.
We'll see...
Actually, I want both of them on the ticket. I think each of them bring considerable competences and talents. And I also think that together, they will bring enthusiastic activist support and a real sense of change and hope... a woman and an african american, for goodness sakes! What an opportunity this is for America.
I think we all assume that Obama would take the VP position if Hillary wins the nomination. I suspect some of us are less certain that Hillary would sign on in the junior position. I guess the matter differently.
We've gone over this about 10 gazillion times, but I really don't think either would choose the other for a ticket. Too many of the same positives, too many of the same liabilities. I think they'd each be going for balance. (i.e. someone old, white, and male, with scads of experience. Southern state preferred. Biden maybe, I dunno.)
I think either one will pretty handily get most or all of the support that the other one enjoyed; I don't think there will be a lot of Hillary fans who refuse to vote for Obama if he gets the nomination, for example. So I don't think they need to join forces in that respect.
What I find surprising about the Polling Report is how McCain does vs Clinton: I thought he was dead meat several months ago.
Sure.
To be clear, the bet is: If Hillary wins the nomination, she'll choose Obama as a running mate; If Obama wins the nomination, he'll choose Hillary as a running mate.
Bet is that you say yes, this will happen, and I say no, it won't happen.
Sound good?
Rich! I'm going to be rich!
(agreed in all particulars)
I'll be the "witness" and the holder of the money. Send it to me, cash only.
I'll be the adjudicator.
A question that comes up:
Quote:
To be clear, the bet is: If Hillary wins the nomination, she'll choose Obama as a running mate; If Obama wins the nomination, he'll choose Hillary as a running mate.
What if, say, Obama wants Hillary as his running mate, but she declines? Technically, he still would have chose her.
Cycloptichorn
The action word here is "choose."
Yeah, I think that if Obama chooses Hillary and she declines, Blatham would still win. The point is what the respective candidates and their advisors would decide about who would be the best running mate.
cicerone imposter wrote:The action word here is "choose."
Yeah, I know, but the word 'choose' implies a choice on Obama's part, not necessarily an acceptance of his choice on Hillary's part.
Cycloptichorn
Oh and if someone else comes out of the blue -- if Edwards wins the nomination, for example -- then the bet's off. Only applies to Obama and Hillary.
From the Obama campaign, re: the sort of idiocy that our Republican members have been throwing around these last two days:
Quote:August 3, 2007
To: Interested Parties
From: Samantha Power -- Founding Executive Director, Harvard University Carr Center for Human Rights Policy
Re: Conventional Washington versus the Change We Need
It was Washington's conventional wisdom that led us into the worst strategic blunder in the history of US foreign policy. The rush to invade Iraq was a position advocated by not only the Bush Administration, but also by editorial pages, the foreign policy establishment of both parties, and majorities in both houses of Congress. Those who opposed the war were often labeled weak, inexperienced, and even naïve.
Barack Obama defied conventional wisdom and opposed invading Iraq. He did so at a time when some told him that doing so would doom his political future. He took that risk because he thought it essential that the United States "finish the fight with bin Laden and al Qaeda." He warned that a "dumb war, a rash war" in Iraq would result in an "occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences."
Barack Obama was right; the conventional wisdom was wrong. And today, we see the consequences. Iraq is in chaos. According to the National Intelligence Estimate, the threat to our homeland from terrorist groups is "persistent and evolving." Al-Qaeda has a safe-haven in Pakistan. Iran has only grown stronger and bolder. The American people are less safe because of a rash war.
Over the last few weeks, Barack Obama has once again taken positions that challenge Washington's conventional wisdom on foreign policy. And once again, pundits and politicians have leveled charges that are now bankrupt of credibility and devoid of the new ideas that the American people desperately want.
On each point in the last few weeks, Barack Obama has called for a break from a broken way of doing things. On each point, he has brought fresh strategic thinking and common sense that break with the very conventional wisdom that has led us into Iraq.
Diplomacy: For years, conventional wisdom in Washington has said that the United States cannot talk to its adversaries because it would reward them. Here is the result:
* The United States has not talked directly to Iran at a high level, and they have continued to build their nuclear weapons program, wreak havoc in Iraq, and support terror.
* The United States has not talked directly to Syria at a high level, and they have continued to meddle in Lebanon and support terror.
* The United States did not talk to North Korea for years, and they were able to produce enough material for 6 to 8 more nuclear bombs.
By any measure, not talking has not worked. Conventional wisdom would have us continue this policy; Barack Obama would turn the page. He knows that not talking has made us look weak and stubborn in the world; that skillful diplomacy can drive wedges between your adversaries; that the only way to know your enemy is to take his measure; and that tough talk is of little use if you're not willing to do it directly to your adversary. Barack Obama is not afraid of losing a PR battle to a dictator - he's ready to tell them what they don't want to hear because that's how tough, smart diplomacy works, and that's how American leaders have scored some of the greatest strategic successes in US history.
Barack Obama's judgment is right; the conventional wisdom is wrong. We need a new era of tough, principled and engaged American diplomacy to deal with 21st century challenges.
Terrorist Sanctuaries: For years, we have given President Musharraf hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid, while deferring to his cautious judgment on how to take out high-level al Qaeda targets - including, most likely, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. Here is the result:
* Bin Laden and Zawahiri - two men with direct responsibility for 9/11- remain at large.
* Al Qaeda has trained and deployed hundreds of fighters worldwide from its sanctuary in northwest Pakistan.
* Afghanistan is far less secure because the Taliban can strike across the border, and then return to safety in Pakistan.
By any measure, this strategy has not worked. Conventional wisdom would have us defer to Musharraf in perpetuity. Barack Obama wants to turn the page. If Musharraf is willing to go after the terrorists and stop the Taliban from using Pakistan as a base of operations, Obama would give him all of the support he needs. But Obama made clear that as President, if he had actionable intelligence about the whereabouts of al Qaeda leaders in Pakistan - and the Pakistanis continued to refuse to act against terrorists known to be behind attacks on American civilians - then he will use highly targeted force to do so.
Barack Obama's judgment is right; the conventional wisdom is wrong. We need a new era that moves beyond the conventional wisdom that has brought us over-reliance on an unreliable dictator in Pakistan and an occupation of Iraq.
Nuclear Attacks on Terrorist Targets: For years, Washington's conventional wisdom has held that candidates for President are judged not by their wisdom, but rather by their adherence to hackneyed rhetoric that make little sense beyond the Beltway. When asked whether he would use nuclear weapons to take out terrorist targets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Barack Obama gave the sensible answer that nuclear force was not necessary, and would kill too many civilians. Conventional wisdom held this up as a sign of inexperience. But if experience leads you to make gratuitous threats about nuclear use - inflaming fears at home and abroad, and signaling nuclear powers and nuclear aspirants that using nuclear weapons is acceptable behavior, it is experience that should not be relied upon.
Barack Obama's judgment is right. Conventional wisdom is wrong. It is wrong to propose that we would drop nuclear bombs on terrorist training camps in Pakistan, potentially killing tens of thousands of people and sending America's prestige in the world to a level that not even George Bush could take it. We should judge presidential candidates on their judgment and their plans, not on their ability to recite platitudes.
Vision: American foreign policy is broken. It has been broken by people who supported the Iraq War, opposed talking to our adversaries, failed to finish the job with al Qaeda, and alienated the world with our belligerence. Yet conventional wisdom holds that people whose experience includes taking these positions are held up as examples of what America needs in times of trouble.
Barack Obama says we have to turn the page. We cannot afford any more of this kind of bankrupt conventional wisdom. He has laid out a foreign policy that is bold, clear, principled, and tailored for the 21st century. End a war we should never have fought, concentrate our resources against terrorists who threaten America. End the counter-productive policy of lumping together our adversaries and avoiding talking to our foes. End the era of politics that is all sound-bites and no substance, and offer the American people the change that they need.
Barack Obama's judgment is right. It is conventional wisdom that has to change.
From Greenwald today:
Quote:
America is plagued by a self-anointed, highly influential, and insular so-called Foreign Policy Community which spans both political parties. They consider themselves Extremely Serious and have a whole litany of decades-old orthodoxies which one must embrace lest one be declared irresponsible, naive and unserious. Most of these orthodoxies are ossified 50-year-old relics from the Cold War, and the rest are designed to place off limits from debate the question of whether the U.S. should continue to act as an imperial force, ruling the world with its superior military power.
Most of the recent "controversies" involving Barack Obama's foreign policy statements -- including his oh-so-shocking statement that it would not make moral or political sense to use tactical nuclear weapons to bomb isolated terrorist camps as well as his willingness to attack Al Qaeda elements inside Pakistan if the Musharraf government refuses (as they did for some time) -- were not "controversial" among the Establishment on the merits. They were "controversial" (and "naive" and "irresponsible") because they breached the protocols and orthodoxies imposed by the Foreign Policy Community governing how we are allowed to talk about these issues.
This was vividly illustrated by the sharpest exchange from last night's debate, where both Hillary Clinton and Chris Dodd excoriated Obama for his comments on Pakistan, not on the ground that Obama's statements were wrong on the merits (i.e, not that we should avoid military action inside Pakistan under those circumstances), but instead on the ground that he committed the sin of actually discussing with the American people what our foreign policy would be.
The Foreign Policy Community is more secretive than the Fight Club. They believe that all foreign policy should be formulated only by our secret "scholar"-geniuses in the think tanks and institutes comprising the Foreign Policy Community and that the American people should not and need not know anything about any of it short of the most meaningless platitudes. They are the Guardians of Seriousness. "Serious" really means the extent to which one adheres to their rules and pays homage to their decrees.
It is unsurprising that the 'serious' crowd doesn't like Obama; he doesn't play by their rules. Greenwald makes a great point that these people who portray themselves as scholars, are really just politicians waiting for appointments.
And their track records universally suck.
Cycloptichorn
Surprise, surprise; Bush's performance rating is going back up! The generals are saying we're making progress in Iraq. I guess that's all the American People need to hear, and ignore the suffering of the Iraqi People.
Just received this from a friend in Australia. Interesting perspective about Clinton and Obama.
This is what the Economist magazine says* of the future direction of American politics:
The most conservative president in recent history, a man who sought to turn his victories of 2000 and 2004 into a Republican hegemony, may well end up driving the Western world's most impressive political machine off a cliff. ...
During his presidency, the words Katrina, Rumsfeld, Abramoff, Guantánamo and Libby have become shorthand for incompetence, cronyism or extremism. ...
Yet ... Bush is not a good scapegoat. Rather than betraying the right, he has given it virtually everything it craved, from humongous tax cuts to conservative judges. Many of the worst errors were championed by conservative constituencies. ...
Mr Bush's departure hardly guarantees a move back to the centre. Social liberals like Mr Giuliani and Arnold Schwarzenegger are in a minority on the right. ...
Mrs Clinton might be portrayed as a communist on talk radio in Kansas, but set her alongside France's Nicolas Sarkozy, Germany's Angela Merkel, Britain's David Cameron or any other supposed European conservative, and on virtually every significant issue Mrs Clinton is the more right-wing. She also mentions God more often than the average European bishop. ...
America's allies, especially in Europe, would also be unwise to start celebrating ... The Democrats are moving to the left not just on health care, but also on trade ... The main Democratic candidates are equally staunch in their support of Israel; none of them has ruled out attacking Iran; Mr Obama might take a shot at Pakistan; and few of them want to cede power to multilateral organisations.
In other words, Bush is -- and always has been -- a symptom rather than the cause. There is nothing to guarantee that, with the Idiot gone, the world will not continue to be subjected to just as much violence, exploitation and hypocrisy from a nation that still reckons it is (literally) a gift from God.
Murf
*
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9621579
Liberals are liberals regardless of where they reside, imposter.
okie: Liberals are liberals regardless of where they reside, imposter.
What exactly are you trying to say? That this world has liberals and conservatives? Your post says nothing at all! That's a given.
The United States of America is a gift from God, contrary to the anti-American attitude expressed by The Economist.
From elsewhere in today's Economist, here's a graph I thought Sozobe might like.
[img]http://www.economist.com/images/20070811/CFB763.gif[/img]
Source (This article is recommended reading, but may require a subscription)