cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 10:48 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
okie wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, Thomas, it is not something for me to worry about Iran bombing places in Oklahoma as long as they don't invade us?


Iran bombing Oklahoma? Okie, what planet are you living on?



The only thing okie and his ilk are good at is imagination. They should be writers in comic books, because they never have any of their facts straight, but are able to dream up ideas that are foreign to most of us. Iran bomb Oklahoma? That's a new one!
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 10:48 am
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, Thomas, it is not something for me to worry about Iran bombing places in Oklahoma as long as they don't invade us?

Unsurprisingly, you did not understand me correctly. I called Obama's declaration "unacceptable", so obviously I do find the bombing targets in a country to be something to worry about. All I'm saying is that there's a big difference between that and an invasion.

On a more personal level, I'm not going to tell you what to worry about. (That's your choice to make.) I am also not going to respond to any further attempt on your part to put words into my mouth.

Peace, Thomas, I see the difference between bombing and invasion, but bombing is still a very serious act, and in some circumstances could be considered the same as an invasion. I should have used the word "bomb" instead of "invade," you are correct on that.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 10:50 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
okie wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, Thomas, it is not something for me to worry about Iran bombing places in Oklahoma as long as they don't invade us?


Iran bombing Oklahoma? Okie, what planet are you living on?



The only thing okie and his ilk are good at is imagination. They should be writers in comic books, because they never have any of their facts straight, but are able to dream up ideas that are foreign to most of us. Iran bomb Oklahoma? That's a new one!

Calm down, I used the illustration to illustrate the gravity of the act of bombing. The illustration worked.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 11:02 am
Oh, it did? Will you please tell us who took it seriously?
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 11:03 am
okie wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
okie wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, Thomas, it is not something for me to worry about Iran bombing places in Oklahoma as long as they don't invade us?


Iran bombing Oklahoma? Okie, what planet are you living on?



The only thing okie and his ilk are good at is imagination. They should be writers in comic books, because they never have any of their facts straight, but are able to dream up ideas that are foreign to most of us. Iran bomb Oklahoma? That's a new one!

Calm down, I used the illustration to illustrate the gravity of the act of bombing. The illustration worked.


Calm down, if I were any more calm, I'd be comatose. Why did you use such a stupid analogy?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 02:03 pm
blatham wrote:
Not being one of that low sort of human who revels in "cough...I...uh...cough, cough...told you so" I obviously won't say it here.

My guess is that this trend [of Hillary doing consistently, even increasingly, well in the polls] is accurate and that it will continue to manifest in further polls as time goes on. It is, I think, a consequence of several factors:

- her performance in the debates (competence/knowledge, projection of warmth, projection of strength),
- the dissatisfaction among moderates and even republicans with their candidate choices (related here is the breakdown of conservative movement unanimity/certainty),
- the growing broad electoral dissatisfaction with Bush and republican governance/ideology,
- the competence of her campaign

Blatham has a point. I have, reluctantly, noticed the same things. Hillary has been doing much better than I thought she would be.

Consequently, my utter distaste of her has morphed over time into a mere , if distinct, lack of enthusiasm, with even a kind grudging admiration streaked in.

Below, from Pollster.com, a very read-worthy analysis of the state of the polls, doubling as a factcheck of what the Obama and Clinton campaigns have been asserting about the polls. (The claims by the Obama campaign come off badly).

Quote:
Clinton vs. Obama: Dueling Memos and Some Data

Pollster.com
August 7, 2007

[nimh: The graphs below are compiled by tracking all national opinion polls that appear: each poll is represented in the graph as an individual dot. Note the variation that, from one poll to the next, is quite large, but that coalesces into a distinct recognizable trend when averaged. The blue and the red lines are not running averages but "regression based estimators".]

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/1HCvsBOlarge.png

The Clinton and Obama campaigns released dueling memos yesterday, each touting their standing in some polls and dismissing evidence to the contrary. The Clinton memo is here and the Obama memo is here thanks to our friends at MSNBC. Both memos, not surprisingly, selectively interpret the polls to their advantage. But let's look at the data and see who has the better evidence at this point.

The national polls have shown a long period of stability. Obama enjoyed a nice rise in the polls after he became a candidate following the 2006 election. He had a rapid rise to 23% by April 1 and it was nearly impossible to read a news article about him during this period without encountering the phrase "rock star". But perhaps he was a "one-hit-wonder" because since April 1 there has been no further upward movement in his national support. If anything there has been a negligible decline to a current estimated support of 22.6%. That has put him solidly in second place since November, but he has failed to close the gap with Clinton since April.

The Clinton campaign also experienced a long period in the doldrums. After entering 2006 at about 37% support, Clinton declined slightly to 35% just after the November elections. And there she sat until May. There were hints of tiny increases and tiny declines, but she remained well within a point of 35% during the spring. This stability could be interpreted as evidence of strength because her support was sustained throughout the period of Obama's rise. I think this reflects the power of Clinton's hold on her core supporters. At the same time, during this period of ramping up of the campaign there was no detectable improvement in Clinton's standing with Democratic primary voters.

That began to change by early June and has accelerated a bit since. My best estimate of Clinton's current support is 38.8%, a rise of nearly 4 points since the end of April. That four point rise won't sound like much to those accustomed to the noisy variation from poll to poll, but the trend estimator I use has the advantage of aggregating across many polls and hence has a much smaller range of random variability. A move of this much is certainly not negligible.

The blue line in the figure is my standard trend estimator. The red line is more sensitive to short term trends, but also more easily fooled by random noise. I provide both so you can judge for yourself any differences between the more solid blue estimator and the more rapid change of the red estimate. In this case, the red estimator is in complete agreement with the blue for Obama, but suggests a slightly greater surge for Clinton recently.

Of the 90 national polls included in my data, Clinton has led Obama in 89. But the more important point is that gap has not closed since April 1, and since May the gap has widened a bit with Clinton's move up and Obama's stagnant polling.

The Obama memo characterizes the " irrelevant and wildly inconsistent national polls" as meaningless. As the figure above makes clear, there is indeed considerable variation across national polls, but the story they tell is not inconsistent except when cherry picking results. The polling varies in about the random pattern around the trend that we would expect from surveys based on probability samples of the electorate.

On the other hand, the Obama memo is quite correct that nomination races are about performance in individual states, not national polls. The early primaries have carried great weight in the modern period since the reform of the primary system in 1972. There is great debate this year about whether this will continue or if the massive February 5th primary day will fundamentally alter the traditional dynamics. But everyone agrees that it is better to do well in the pre-February 5 primaries than to do badly in them. So let's see where the Democratic campaign stands in the first five caucus and primary states.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/2ClintonVsObamaByStatelarge.png

The available state polling substantially agrees with the national polling in putting Clinton ahead of Obama in all five of the first states, based on my trend estimate that incorporates all polls. Moreover, Clinton's support is stable or rising in all five states, while Obama has risen substantially in only South Carolina, and perhaps a bit in New Hampshire. In Iowa Obama's support has clearly fallen off, while Nevada and Florida appear essentially flat.

The important caveat here is that state polling is more limited than national, and that the numerous polling organizations vary in their results with some sometimes substantial "house effects". Either campaign can (and both do) select individual polls in the states to make the case for their improving standing. But this is pure cherry picking of data. With the variability clear in the plot, it is easy enough to pick the poll that puts your candidate at the highest mark while finding one that minimizes your opponent's standing. That is the reason we use all the data here and let the trend estimates fall where they may.

So where does this leave the race? A clear Clinton advantage and strong evidence of some recent improvement in both national and state polls. For Obama, there is no comparable upturn nationwide and the picture in the states is mixed at best. The Clinton upturn is of interest because some argued that her support was solid but had little or no upside. "Everyone" has already decided about Clinton, this line of argument goes, and so while her base is rock solid she is vulnerable to a coalition of "anybody but Clinton" voters. That vulnerability remains a real liability, but the recent upturn suggests the upside for her is not as limited as some analysis suggested.

The bright side for Obama is that he still has a considerable upside in public awareness and in favorability, an area where Clinton does indeed seem in some peril among the general electorate. Obama also has very impressive fundraising success which indicates support among more engaged partisans.

The critical question is what happens to the roughly 60% of Democratic voters who currently do not support Clinton. Can they be won over or can Obama (or someone else) become the focus of an "anybody but Clinton" coalition? Until that dynamic is sorted out, and until some candidate other than Clinton starts to move up (none, so far) the advantage has to go to Clinton.

-- Charles Franklin
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 02:11 pm
It's my humble belief that it's still too early to call. I think trends are nice, but we still have 14 months to go.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 02:13 pm
Well, of course. Calling the race is not what we're doing here.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 02:21 pm
I second that "of course." I do agree though with this part of the (excellent) Pollster.com analysis:

Quote:
"Everyone" has already decided about Clinton, this line of argument goes, and so while her base is rock solid she is vulnerable to a coalition of "anybody but Clinton" voters. That vulnerability remains a real liability, but the recent upturn suggests the upside for her is not as limited as some analysis suggested.

The bright side for Obama is that he still has a considerable upside in public awareness and in favorability, an area where Clinton does indeed seem in some peril among the general electorate. Obama also has very impressive fundraising success which indicates support among more engaged partisans.

The critical question is what happens to the roughly 60% of Democratic voters who currently do not support Clinton. Can they be won over or can Obama (or someone else) become the focus of an "anybody but Clinton" coalition? Until that dynamic is sorted out, and until some candidate other than Clinton starts to move up (none, so far) the advantage has to go to Clinton.


(I bolded the parts I most agree with; I do agree with the whole thing though.)

This isn't really the part of the race where I've been worried about how Hillary would do. I've been worried for a long time that she would WIN the Democratic nomination, and then get clobbered in the general election. My support for Obama has been for a lot of reasons but that is one -- that I see him as having the best chance of supplanting Hillary as the Democratic nominee, and that I think someone other than Hillary needs to be the Democratic nominee.

Blatham's latest polls seem to belie that, with Hillary beating Giuliani (barely) in some places, and other Dems not doing any better than her -- we'll see.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 04:16 pm
sozobe wrote:
I second that "of course." I do agree though with this part of the (excellent) Pollster.com analysis:

Quote:
"Everyone" has already decided about Clinton, this line of argument goes, and so while her base is rock solid she is vulnerable to a coalition of "anybody but Clinton" voters. That vulnerability remains a real liability, but the recent upturn suggests the upside for her is not as limited as some analysis suggested.

An "uhm" here from me: the point of this sentence in the analysis is exactly that the line of argument you've bolded now looks to start being disproven.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 04:40 pm
ci...fer sure...I'm just peeking out the mail slot in the front door and making guesses about the weather in a neighboring state ten days on. Sorta.

nimh and soz

The "will she get clobbered in the general election?" question might not be clear until election evening. And there are a lot of smart folks on the left who have harbored the same anxieties as you. I'm very pleased with the trends noted above not because I favor Hillary but because I favor a saner and more tempered american polity. That folks, in significant numbers, are rethinking her candidacy is, to me, deeply encouraging.

But I will also confide a secret hope or two as regards Hillary. The scenario where she gains the nomination and then goes on to win the Presidency seems very likely to produce significant demoralization and disunity within the modern conservative movement. I consider that consequence the primary step in getting america sane again.

Secondly, and tightly related, is my notion that no one running for the dem ticket is more deeply knowledgeable as regards the means and processes that the NCM has utilized in achieving media management and political power than is Hillary. If that is so, then no one is better positioned to establish counter-strategies to turn things around. It is clear now that part of Rove and company's plan to bring about a 30 year Republican dominance has been the insertion of republican operatives at all levels of governmental organization...the courts, justice, health, education, Iraq, science and environment, etc etc...really pretty much everywhere. Hillary, with her personal experiences, her senatorial experiences and with the benefit of her husband's experiences and knowledge ought to make her a formidable force towards repair of the system.

My thesis here is that, regardless who gets nominated/elected, unless those two prior conditions are addressed and remedied, a dem presidency will be hobbled, perhaps terminally. Things will be bloody difficult up the road even without a shadow government and shadow media determined to break her Presidency (or Obama's).
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 8 Aug, 2007 05:07 pm
nimh wrote:
sozobe wrote:
I second that "of course." I do agree though with this part of the (excellent) Pollster.com analysis:

Quote:
"Everyone" has already decided about Clinton, this line of argument goes, and so while her base is rock solid she is vulnerable to a coalition of "anybody but Clinton" voters. That vulnerability remains a real liability, but the recent upturn suggests the upside for her is not as limited as some analysis suggested.

An "uhm" here from me: the point of this sentence in the analysis is exactly that the line of argument you've bolded now looks to start being disproven.


Not exactly. It says "that vulnerability [to "anybody but Clinton" voters] remains a real liability." It may be less of a liability than previously thought, but they're not saying that oops it looks like it won't be a liability after all.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 03:04 am
Sozobe -- if, in the general election, Hillary Clinton was equally electable as Obama, would you vote for her in the primary? My impression is that you wouldn't -- and if this impression is right, her electability wouldn't make much of a difference to you, would it.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 06:56 am
Every time I see Hillary and Obama on the stage taking questions, I feel that Hillary gains ground and Obama losses a little bit more of that magic that captured everyone at the Democrat Convention before last election. He may be a good orator with pre-planned speeches, but he isn't nearly as sharp with off the cuff questions.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 07:00 am
Thomas wrote:
Sozobe -- if, in the general election, Hillary Clinton was equally electable as Obama, would you vote for her in the primary? My impression is that you wouldn't -- and if this impression is right, her electability wouldn't make much of a difference to you, would it.


That's kind of hard to answer. I really, really like Obama. All things being equal, I'd vote for him. If all things were NOT equal, though -- if Hillary seemed to have a much better chance of winning in a general election, for example -- I'd vote for Hillary, probably.

Ultimately, I think any of the top Democrats (top 3 plus Biden, not sure about Richardson, Dodd, or Kucinich, and not Gravel) would be better than any of the Republican possibilities. I want a Democratic president to enter the White House in 2009.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 07:32 am
I agree with sozobe; sounds like the best way to go from here.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 07:51 am
sozobe wrote:
Ultimately, I think any of the top Democrats (top 3 plus Biden, not sure about Richardson, Dodd, or Kucinich, and not Gravel) would be better than any of the Republican possibilities.

Sadly, you're right. Even though I can't vote, as an Independent I'd really, really, really like to see a contest between a competent Democrat and a competent Republican. It doesn't help my mood that I can remember the election years 1992 and 1996, when general election voters actually had a choice between presentable candidates. (And as an aside, my 1992 self would have definitely hated me for this "back in my day" speech. I am officially getting old.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 08:10 am
Cheer up, thomas. It's not really so bad. After all, toe-nail fungus doesn't hurt even a bit, then you get to wear pleated pants all the time which entirely disguise your underwear liners, and another grace, particularly appealing I think, is the sympathy often engendered when you say to the policeman, "I'm sorry officer but because of my glaucoma I cannot read this citation for marijuana possession."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 09:02 am
<Thomas can't answer for some time: two local boy scouts (in Lederhosen) are helping him crossing the street. >
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 09:11 am
sozobe wrote:
I want a Democratic president to enter the White House in 2009.

You'll get your wish granted if Polling Report's current polls are any indication, if the Republicans are dumb enough to nominate anyone but Giuliani, or if the Democrats are smart enough to nominate either Obama or Clinton. Things could look a lot worse for you!
0 Replies
 
 

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