Miller
 
  1  
Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:04 pm
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan? Okay Obama fanatics, where are you? The guy is toast, except for maybe VP if he starts playing softball with Hillary and the Democratic Party machine.

I predicted this over 400 pages ago.


Will Daley go for Clinton or Obama?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 12:44 am
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan?

No.

If you're interested in what Obama does want, you can read Buttrflynet's excerpts from his speech a few pages ago. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen, but there's no harm in giving you the pointer.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 06:44 am
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan?

No.

If you're interested in what Obama does want, you can read Buttrflynet's excerpts from his speech a few pages ago. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen, but there's no harm in giving you the pointer.


Thomas is right, he doesn't want to invade, only bomb a small section of the country. You know, like if Russia only bombed Alaska, wouldn't be an invasion, just some, uh, bombings.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 06:46 am
Something, Bush left open: he stopped short of saying whether he would ask the Pakistani president before dispatching U.S. troops into that nation.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 12:32 pm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/08/07/EDL4RDO2J1.DTL

Open Forum
Obama: Part hawk, part dove
Daniel Widome

Tuesday, August 7, 2007

After months of enduring repeated accusations that he lacked policy substance, Barack Obama now faces the opposite problem. In recent weeks, as the Illinois senator has fleshed out his foreign policy agenda, he has encountered increasing criticism from across the political spectrum. Liberal bloggers suspect Obama is a closet neoconservative, while conservative pundits declare him unsuited for the presidency. He has lately been called naive, irresponsible, unpredictable, confused and reckless - among other, less diplomatic labels.

In reality, most of these attacks have little substantive basis, and they simply represent the standard political give-and-take found in all presidential campaigns. But beyond that, the attacks are rooted in a basic misunderstanding of Obama's unconventional approach to politics and policy. In essence, they reveal something fundamentally unique about Obama's political character and his worldview.

Substantively, the specific questions about Obama's foreign policy proposals are not exactly unimportant, but they are off base. In a Democratic presidential candidates debate several weeks ago, Obama expressed his willingness to meet with unfriendly foreign leaders, such as those from Iran and Venezuela. Contrary to charges of "naivete" by Sen. Hillary Clinton, he actually made no commitment or pledge to hold such meetings. Forced into a political battle by Clinton's attack, however, Obama fought back, portraying his unvarnished emphasis on diplomacy as transparent, sensible and entirely uncontroversial. Indeed, each of Obama's fellow Democratic candidates has stressed a need for greater diplomacy throughout their respective campaigns, albeit in hazier terms. Obama's position, then, was notable more for its tone than for its substance, which itself was a relevant distinction. In politics as in diplomacy, style often is substance.

In a speech outlining his anti-terrorism proposals a week later, Obama suggested that he would attack high-value al Qaeda targets in Pakistan, if that country wouldn't do so itself. This assertion was welcomed with attacks from the political left, which seemed to confuse Obama's opposition to the Iraq war with an opposition to fighting al Qaeda. On its merits, Obama's statement was hardly scandalous. The area in which Osama bin Laden is suspected of hiding - in the rough terrain bordering Afghanistan - is a veritable no-man's land, nominally part of Pakistan, but in reality beyond any state's control. For more than a decade, U.S. policy has held that al Qaeda targets in such regions were fair game for attack. President Bill Clinton launched cruise missiles against al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998, and President Bush used a missile-carrying drone to destroy a vehicle carrying an al Qaeda leader in Yemen in 2002. Obama's position, then, was more sensible than revolutionary, as the subsequent concurrences of his fellow Democratic candidates only confirmed.

Finally, in a recent interview, Obama ruled out the use of nuclear weapons against al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan and Pakistan, raising suspicions that he was somehow "weak" in his determination to defend the United States. But like Obama's other statements, the controversy surrounding this one was more contrived than useful. Al Qaeda is, by definition, a non-state actor. It does not wield any degree of territorial sovereignty, and it will never offer targets so large, so fixed, or so hardened as to justify a nuclear strike. As Obama limited his statement to al Qaeda-related targets only, his assertion had no bearing on the grisly, but necessary, deterrent role played by the U.S. nuclear arsenal against potential state-based threats. As several foreign policy experts subsequently noted, Obama's sin (if any) was one of excessive honesty, not of policy impropriety.

Even beyond the substance or the politics of these recent spats, and essential to understanding their real significance, Obama presents a fundamental challenge to the reigning political orthodoxy. This challenge is rooted in his political upbringing as a pragmatic community organizer, not as an ideological street fighter. Obama's instincts emphasize results, consensus and transparency over doctrinal loyalty, needless conflict and self-serving obfuscation. His more myopic critics deride this emphasis on pragmatism over ideology as a kind of soft bipartisanship. To be sure, compromise for its own sake - bereft of independent principle - can be as useless and damaging as ideological artifice. But this has never been Obama's political strategy. Instead, he regularly attempts to transcend the self-limiting political constructs of "left," "right" and "centrist" with an approach that emphasizes results.

These political instincts were best demonstrated in 2002, with Obama's succinct explanation of why he opposed the impending invasion of Iraq: "I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars." At that time - in the wake of 9/11 and before the quagmire of Iraq - political passions were uniquely inflamed. For many, the choice was stark: support the Bush administration's aggressive policies in Afghanistan and Iraq, or oppose them. Defenders of the reigning political orthodoxy portrayed these policy options as a binary choice, on opposite ends of a linear scale, with seemingly little tolerance for a position that didn't fit into their prescribed framework. Obama's position - in support of the effort in Afghanistan, but opposed to an invasion of Iraq - seems strikingly sensible today. But in 2002, it was something of a heretical view on the national stage, and it flouted the political orthodoxy ensconced in Washington.

Obama's critics, then as now, are unable to pin him down ideologically. They find themselves unwittingly confounded by his refusal to play the traditional games expected of a national political figure. The choice that Obama implicitly offers to voters is not between competing ideologies, which is the choice traditionally presented in presidential elections and was the one provided prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2002. Rather, the choice offered by Obama is between pragmatism and ideology. Lacking the appropriate political vocabulary, and threatened by Obama's campaign success thus far, his critics mistake his unconventional thinking for naiveté, his nuance for inconsistency and his clarity for obfuscation.

Contrary to the assertions of many of his critics, the policy positions revealed by Obama in recent weeks are part-and-parcel of an entirely consistent worldview. In April, Obama delivered a comprehensive foreign policy speech that was peppered with just the kind of sensible, pragmatic and straightforward ideas that have come to define his politics. Although he reiterated his initial opposition to the Iraq war and his desire for a U.S. withdrawal from that country, he resisted the impulse from the political left for a U.S. disengagement from the world, asserting that, "the security of the American people is inextricably linked to the security of all people." Although he called for the renewal of diplomatic partnerships and alliances, he also spoke of rebuilding and expanding the U.S. military, "to protect ourselves and our vital interests when we are attacked or imminently threatened." This was all topped off by a strong emphasis on stopping the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, a niche issue of limited visibility, but tremendous importance that Obama has quickly made his own during his brief Senate tenure.

Such a plan is very characteristic of Obama's political instincts. He has just as little patience for the principled gridlock that comes from ideological artifice as he does for the unprincipled compromise that comes from self-serving bipartisanship. In other words, Obama regularly gives ample fodder for political extremists of all stripes to both praise and criticize. Ideological purists loathe it. Many voters seem to love it.

Daniel Widome is a San Francisco-based writer and foreign policy analyst.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:39 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan?

No.

If you're interested in what Obama does want, you can read Buttrflynet's excerpts from his speech a few pages ago. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen, but there's no harm in giving you the pointer.


Thomas is right, he doesn't want to invade, only bomb a small section of the country. You know, like if Russia only bombed Alaska, wouldn't be an invasion, just some, uh, bombings.

This is funny as ****. I don't care what any of you ostriches say.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:44 pm
It's beginning to look like a John Kerry campaign....Obama puts his foot in his mouth then the next two weeks the 'nuances' of what he really meant is attempted to be explained away by various Obama bandwagoneers.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:45 pm
Jesus.

Word up, Brand.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:51 pm
Bull ****. What you are looking at is fear on the part of the right wing of Obama's candidacy.

He's been straightforward the whole time - if we get intelligence about AQ camps, we're going to attack them, even if Pakistan won't. We're not going to nuke them. We're going to talk to the leaders of countries we don't get along with.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:53 pm
I thought the "swiftboaters" were gone!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:54 pm
Just hold your breath, CI. The "community organizers for truth" will be ready to strike soon.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 01:58 pm
At my age, holding my breath is dangerous to my health. LOL
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 05:23 pm
Lash wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan?

No.

If you're interested in what Obama does want, you can read Buttrflynet's excerpts from his speech a few pages ago. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen, but there's no harm in giving you the pointer.


Thomas is right, he doesn't want to invade, only bomb a small section of the country. You know, like if Russia only bombed Alaska, wouldn't be an invasion, just some, uh, bombings.

This is funny as ****. I don't care what any of you ostriches say.


and brandx added,
Quote:
It's beginning to look like a John Kerry campaign....Obama puts his foot in his mouth then the next two weeks the 'nuances' of what he really meant is attempted to be explained away by various Obama bandwagoneers.


And then there is this...
Quote:
International
US would kill Bin Laden in Pakistan, says Bush
By Ewen MacAskill

Washington, Aug. 8 (Guardian News Service): US President George Bush insisted on Monday that the US would kill Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaida leaders believed to be hiding in Pakistan if it had "actionable intelligence". He refused to say whether he would first seek permission for an attack from Pakistan's president.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200708080342.htm

So, for you folks, it likely isn't the position Obama has taken which is at fault, rather that it is Obama who states it. And, of course, that 'fault' you assign also must sit with any of us who support Obama...again, not because there is anything wrong with the position but rather because either we agree or haven't spoken out in opposition.

We must disagree and be vocal about our disagreement, you imply, as a matter of logical or philosphical consistency and thus, integrity. Do I have you right here?

And your argument has heft or is reasonable because, in prior similar situations such as Clinton's launch of missles into Afghanistan or in Bush's attack on the Taliban, we (that is, the Obama supporters or we liberals or those who represent what you consider "the left") held that both of those actions were wrong. Do I have you right here too?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 05:57 pm
I pasted this elsewhere, but could not resist putting it here as well...



Now, this one is an absolute classic.

Propaganda will, when ambitious, seek to achieve the trick of making you believe that black is obviously the favored color of god, virgins and the KKK.

Where to turn, if you are the Wall Street Journal, for a proper voice to educate the American public on how failures of media and citizens to self-censor themselves regarding critical speech about political leaders (and their policies/motives/performance) are unpatriotic.

Indeed. Who better?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010438
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 07:04 pm
Miller wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan? Okay Obama fanatics, where are you? The guy is toast, except for maybe VP if he starts playing softball with Hillary and the Democratic Party machine.

I predicted this over 400 pages ago.


Will Daley go for Clinton or Obama?

I don't know. I am not familiar with that scenario. How crooked is Obama, or is he? That might be a clue to the answer.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 07:31 pm
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan?

No.

If you're interested in what Obama does want, you can read Buttrflynet's excerpts from his speech a few pages ago. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen, but there's no harm in giving you the pointer.

No need to even worry about holding your breath, Thomas. So, he meant "bomb" instead of "invade." Not alot of difference is there?

I find all of this fascinating from the perspective that Bush has been called everything from stupid to a traitor by the Democrats and the left. Yet, here we see a policy speech by Obama in regard to terrorism that seems to recognize the gravity of the threat and the need to do something about it, that something being very very serious. These same Democrats have been doing nothing but stall, hinder, and criticize every effort by the Bush administration to combat the problem, and worse than that, undermine Bush and this country in our war on terror. Edwards called it a non-problem, nothing more than a bumper sticker. The Democrats have spent the last few years building a case that this is not a serious problem whatsoever.

So now Obama makes a speech with all of these very serious suggestions, including bombing Pakistan. Hmmm.. I think he thought he had studied this to the hilt and was ready to make his splash into the arena with this presumably well thought out policy to serve notice that he was no lightweight in regard to terrorists.

Well, maybe it does the exact opposite of his intention and such only demonstrates his amateurish attempt at this. First of all, it isn't consistent with what he has said in the past in regard to our overall policy toward terrorism, at least that is my impression, and what is gained by saber rattling for the purpose of a campaign strategy? Not much in my opinion.

Actually, I do not disagree completely with what he said, but such needs to be done with careful cooperation with Pakistan if possible, not unilaterally as his suggestion seems to indicate. And most importantly, I do not think this is the type of thing a green senator needs to be running around saying for the purposes of pollsters. Plus if I actually thought he meant it and would do it, it might make a difference, but I do not.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 07:37 pm
Thomas wrote:
Just hold your breath, CI. The "community organizers for truth" will be ready to strike soon.

I certainly hope you don't still swallow what John Kerry said about Vietnam, Thomas?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 07:53 pm
okie wrote:
Miller wrote:
okie wrote:
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan? Okay Obama fanatics, where are you? The guy is toast, except for maybe VP if he starts playing softball with Hillary and the Democratic Party machine.

I predicted this over 400 pages ago.


Will Daley go for Clinton or Obama?

I don't know. I am not familiar with that scenario. How crooked is Obama, or is he? That might be a clue to the answer.


I don't think he's crooked but he's lacking in experience.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 08:13 pm
okie wrote:
I find all of this fascinating from the perspective that Bush has been called everything from stupid to a traitor by the Democrats and the left. Yet, here we see a policy speech by Obama in regard to terrorism that seems to recognize the gravity of the threat and the need to do something about it, that something being very very serious.


Well, maybe people just think that Bush, around the summer of 2002, forgot about the "War on Terror". And about hunting down Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. And instead, mistakenly - and without doubt only because he was relying on faulty intelligence - invaded Iraq. Which, as it turned out, had nothing to do with the "War on Terror", had not been supporting al Qaeda, and didn't even have a nuclear WMD programme. Not to mention actual WMDs. (Nor did the Iraqis greet the American troops as liberators. And it turned out that the conflict would last longer than, you know, six days or six weeks. In fact, it lasted even longer than six months. But that's a different story....)


So of course, all the attention was focused on Iraq. But meanwhile, people were wondering if Bush wasn't, you know, at least a tiny bit concerned about all those al Qaeda folks that had fled Afghanistan in late 2001 and were now apparently hiding in Pakistan.

So thankfully, Bush turned to the people and cleared that up. He said that he didn't know where bin Laden was. That he had no idea and really didn't care. That, to him, it was not that important. It was not a priority.

Maybe it was at that point that people started calling Bush stupid or a traitor. I don't know. It's a complete mystery to me, too.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 7 Aug, 2007 08:55 pm
old europe wrote:
okie wrote:
I find all of this fascinating from the perspective that Bush has been called everything from stupid to a traitor by the Democrats and the left. Yet, here we see a policy speech by Obama in regard to terrorism that seems to recognize the gravity of the threat and the need to do something about it, that something being very very serious.


Well, maybe people just think that Bush, around the summer of 2002, forgot about the "War on Terror". And about hunting down Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. And instead, mistakenly - and without doubt only because he was relying on faulty intelligence - invaded Iraq. Which, as it turned out, had nothing to do with the "War on Terror", had not been supporting al Qaeda, and didn't even have a nuclear WMD programme. Not to mention actual WMDs. (Nor did the Iraqis greet the American troops as liberators. And it turned out that the conflict would last longer than, you know, six days or six weeks. In fact, it lasted even longer than six months. But that's a different story....)

Translation: Congress, including many Democrats, also forgot they voted for the war. Also forgotten is that decisions are not made with 20/20 hindsight. Also forgotten is that the intelligence community, not only U.S. but the world, told us Hussein was a WMD threat. Also forgotten is that would we really like Saddam Hussein in power still in Iraq, saber rattling and trying to get WMD, not only for himself, but for terrorists? I think not. Many Iraqis did treat Americans as liberators. Also forgotten is that while some parts of Iraq are trouble areas, others are reasonably pacified.

And do you honestly believe, oe, that the Iraq situation has nothing to do with the war on terror?


Quote:
So of course, all the attention was focused on Iraq. But meanwhile, people were wondering if Bush wasn't, you know, at least a tiny bit concerned about all those al Qaeda folks that had fled Afghanistan in late 2001 and were now apparently hiding in Pakistan.

We have operations there, oe, and that is more of an intelligence problem than a troop problem, in my opinion.

Quote:
So thankfully, Bush turned to the people and cleared that up. He said that he didn't know where bin Laden was. That he had no idea and really didn't care. That, to him, it was not that important. It was not a priority.

Maybe it was at that point that people started calling Bush stupid or a traitor. I don't know. It's a complete mystery to me, too.

It isn't hard to understand common sense. We obviously care about Bin Laden, wherever he is. It matters but it doesn't. We do not live or die on whether we get Bin Laden or not. It would be nice, but what Bush is saying is that if we did get Bin Laden, the war on terror would continue. For those people like yourself that wish to take a comment out of context, you apparently are not smart enough to figure it out, but it isn't hard if you would listen to everything Bush has said about it.

Bush is neither stupid or a traitor. I would consider some leftists and Democrats to be dangerously close to that description instead. They have spent the last few years working feverishly to undermine our efforts to fight the cancer that is growing out there. It would do Europeans well to wake up to what is going on right in front of them and more fully join the fight.
0 Replies
 
 

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