blatham
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 08:44 am
thomas

It would seem to follow from your argument that any US action taken in Afghanistan was illegal and/or immoral as well.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 08:54 am
Thomas wrote:
Obama advocates for preventive strikes in foreign countries here.


True. But different from advocating preventive strikes against foreign countries. Which was the neocons' justification for attacking Iraq. From their point of view, if there was a terrorist training camp in a country, that would make the country or the government, pardon, the regime of that country a legitimate target.

What Obama seems to be saying is that if there was a terrorist training camp in a country, that would make the terrorist training camp in that country a legitimate target.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 10:32 am
blatham wrote:
It would seem to follow from your argument that any US action taken in Afghanistan was illegal and/or immoral as well.

No, because the government of Afghanistan knowingly fostered Al Quaeda, which attacked America in an act of war. The Pakitani government, by contrast, does try to suppress Al Quaeda, but is too unstable to do a good job at it. That makes America's war in Afghanistan a defensive one, whereas attacks against Al-Quaeda on Pakistani soil would be aggression.

Old Europe wrote:
True. But different from advocating preventive strikes against foreign countries. Which was the neocons' justification for attacking Iraq. From their point of view, if there was a terrorist training camp in a country, that would make the country or the government, pardon, the regime of that country a legitimate target.

What Obama seems to be saying is that if there was a terrorist training camp in a country, that would make the terrorist training camp in that country a legitimate target.

Fair enough. I'll change my term "equally unacceptable" into "also unacceptable".
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:09 pm
Appreciative of Thomas' viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:43 pm
Lash wrote:
Appreciative of Thomas' viewpoint.


You're becoming such a liberal, Lash. Unbelievable.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:54 pm
I think you're missing something, OE....LOL
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:57 pm
Must be college. Just imagine, OE: a couple of months ago, Lash even said that homosexuals had rights, and the government was violating them. (I forgot the context.) Her late husband must be turning in his grave as we speak. Clearly her values have been corroded by this whole thinking thing they've got going in college. Isn't there some sort of 12 step program against this nasty habit?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:59 pm
Jesus Christ, Thomas. I've always upheld human/civil rights.

Since childhood.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:59 pm
Lash, you're merely in denial!

<smiles>


Thomas, I've absolutely noticed that trend. Gay rights? Now come on. There go all the good conservative values....
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 02:05 pm
Lash wrote:
Jesus Christ, Thomas. I've always upheld human/civil rights.

Got it. In this case, I'll never make mean jokes about your college-acquired thinking habit again. (Not that I would ever make such personal remarks in a political discussion anyway.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 02:07 pm
old europe, You crack me up! LOL "...all the good conservative values..."
0 Replies
 
noinipo
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 05:42 pm
Have a look at the polls.
.
http://www.pollingreport.com/l-o.htm#Obama
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 06:09 pm
0 Replies
 
dearestone
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 06:42 pm
[/quote]"LOL"[/quote]

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 06:49 pm
Thomas wrote:
Lash wrote:
Jesus Christ, Thomas. I've always upheld human/civil rights.

Got it. In this case, I'll never make mean jokes about your college-acquired thinking habit again. (Not that I would ever make such personal remarks in a political discussion anyway.)

<grins...wonders what Thomas has been into today...LOL>
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 09:51 pm
Thomas wrote:
Lash is right.

That may be the first time that sentence has ever been written in earnest.

Thomas wrote:
Obama advocates for preventive strikes in foreign countries here. Or in other words, he says that he will respect the sovereignty of Pakistan only if Pakistan does what America wants. We agreed this kind of talk was unacceptable when it came from the likes of Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and Condoleeza Rice; it is equally unacceptable from Barack Obama. It's the kind of thinking that earned America its reputation as an international bully.

Not the same thing -- not by a long shot. Obama advocates strikes inside Pakistani territory, which, as old europe points out, is far different from strikes against Pakistan. Furthermore, such strikes are not necessarily contrary to international law. It seems clear that nations are allowed a certain latitude in striking terrorist targets within states that are incapable or unwilling to root out those terrorists themselves. That principle goes back to the era of the Barbary pirates.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree with Obama's stance here. It's one thing to bomb targets in the Taliban-run Afghanistan or the Sudan, but it's quite another to do so in an ostensibly friendly state like Pakistan. On the other hand, it is quite clear that Pakistan has shown little eagerness to control its own border territories, and the current policy of waiting for Musharraf to take care of this problem has, I think, been a demonstrable failure (not, to be sure, the kind of disastrous failure that Iraq has been, but a failure nonetheless).

Pakistan's cooperation has, as far as I can tell, yielded few tangible benefits in the Afghan conflict, and Musharraf has been in no hurry to act against the Taliban forces inside the border provinces. That is, perhaps, not surprising, given that Pakistan was practically the only government in the world that had cordial relations with the Taliban regime. And Obama's pledge to make American aid to Islamabad contingent on actual results in acting against the Taliban certainly is a welcome change from the current policy, which rewards Musharraf for doing nothing.

Thomas wrote:
I recognize that the rest of the speech is very reasonable. But this barely matters. National sovereignty is fundamental to international law. If a politician disregards national sovereignty at his convenience, that renders secondary any progress he might otherwise make on the status quo. It's the progress of a cannibal eating with knife and fork.

That's a great line (I may have to steal it), but it's not really apt in this instance.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sat 4 Aug, 2007 10:25 pm
I thought it was apt at first and have been unsettled, basically agreeing with Thomas on the invasive aspect, and, cough, Lash with her cheekyness, but am stepping back, yes, because I like Obama, for consideration, given the present situation. I am thinking consideration will make me less irritated with Obama, but not in agreement.

I don't know what I would do if I was about to be president now. But I wouldn't have gone in backing the mujahadeen against Russia in the first place, were I president back then, and many similar steps we've taken, across the globe. We keep reaping what we sow and acting surprised, and now part of a presidential campaign is a discussion of whether to attack some camps in Pakistan. Does anyone ever consider the simple bizarreness of this? If anyone wrought this, we were a fat part of the mix.

I hate saber rattling for invasions that are bizarre/wrong to me in the first place and, secondarily, unwise as hell. Obama rattled a bit ago about Iran, and I was discomfitted then as well. No, no links; a few months ago.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 6 Aug, 2007 05:00 pm
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:56 pm
I have to assume that Cook County will go for Obama.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Mon 6 Aug, 2007 09:47 pm
So Obama wants to invade Pakistan? Okay Obama fanatics, where are you? The guy is toast, except for maybe VP if he starts playing softball with Hillary and the Democratic Party machine.

I predicted this over 400 pages ago.
0 Replies
 
 

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