spendius
 
  1  
Sat 24 Sep, 2011 05:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I didn't miss it. I shouldn't think Mr Obama gives an on the winger about global warming.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 25 Sep, 2011 01:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You may have missed this line in High Seas post:

Quote:
Since this is the Obama 08 thread (nobody here thinks it will be updated?!) we haven't heard too much about global warming from that quarter, recently.



Indeed I did. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  0  
Tue 27 Sep, 2011 10:39 pm
Rick Perry at his eloquent best:


I think Rick said it best: "Save a pretzel for the gas jets", Who could differ with that?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Thu 29 Sep, 2011 02:43 pm
Stuck in a vicious health-care cost circle

By Robert J. Samuelson

Quote:
We’ve just gotten new evidence confirming the shortcomings of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) — a.k.a., Obamacare. The Kaiser Family Foundation reported that in 2010 employer-sponsored health insurance premiums soared. The average cost for a family policy jumped 9 percent to $15,073, with companies picking up 72 percent ($10,944) and workers the other 28 percent ($4,129). Health costs never decline, but the size of the increases surprised even experts.

You can’t blame the cost surge on the ACA, whose constitutionality the administration has now appealed to the Supreme Court. A few provisions (allowing children to stay on their parents’ policies until they’re 26; eliminating patient payments for some preventive services) probably added a percentage point or two to the total, reckons Kaiser. But that’s just the point: The study reminds us that runaway costs are the health system’s core problem; the ACA does nothing to solve it — and would actually make it worse.
.
.
.
Given the financial crisis, it was a mistake for President Obama to stage a grand health-care debate. It was bound to be divisive and distracting. Regardless of how the Supreme Court decides, the losing side is likely to feel outraged. The ACA was also bound to raise the cost of hiring workers by compelling employers to provide expensive coverage. That prospect can’t be helping job creation.

Having made one mistake, Obama then compounded it by concentrating on the wrong health-care problem. Though steeped in a high moralism, the case for insuring the uninsured was never as strong as it seemed. In a perfect world, of course, everyone would be covered — and that’s a legitimate goal. But in an imperfect world, choices have to be made. Many of the uninsured, young and healthy, don’t need insurance, even though it would be nice to have. And many uninsured who become ill do get care, with costs shifted onto the premiums of the insured.

Meanwhile, fee-for-service medicine propels the cost spiral upward. Insurance becomes less affordable for small businesses — leading to more uninsured — while living standards and other government services are pinched. Breaking this vicious circle is genuinely hard. That may be why Obama chose not to do it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/stuck-in-a-vicious-health-care-cost-circle/2011/09/29/gIQAPoFd7K_blog.html?hpid=z3

That Obama so miss analysed the problem with Healthcare should should sink his attempt to brand himself as the smartest guy in the room. I know he thinks that he talks good, that he can talk his way where ever he wants to go, but now that we know it is his thinking and his listening skills that are not up to par more yet lectures from him are not going to help him.

EDIT: of course maybe Obama was just lying to us, claiming that he was doing something useful when he knew that he was not, but that is hardly going to go better for him if this is what we decide over the conclusion that he is another in a long line of egotistical blowhards with weak problem solving skills sitting in the chair in the Oval Office.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 29 Sep, 2011 03:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Many of the uninsured, young and healthy, don’t need insurance, even though it would be nice to have. And many uninsured who become ill do get care, with costs shifted onto the premiums of the insured.


That's a National Health Service with a different type of funding.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 02:13 pm
The only people this graph will suprise; the only one's who will naysay it - are the ones who are so completely blinded by their own version of Faux-influenced reality that they just can no longer recognize the truth.


http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa101/janblount/debt.png
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 02:35 pm
@snood,
Quote:
The only people this graph will suprise; the only one's who will naysay it - are the ones who are so completely blinded by their own version of Faux-influenced reality that they just can no longer recognize the truth.


How about this truth.....the debt as a percentage of GDP increased on average per year 2.6% under Reagan, 3.5% under Bush the younger, and in the first two years of Obama 4.5%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

Obama does not look so great now, does he.....

Your juvenile attempt to make an argument disappoints but does not surprise.
snood
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 03:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are either too stupid to understand what you read, or simply a liar. this is from the wikipedia article you yourself posted:

Economist Mike Kimel notes that the five former Democratic Presidents (Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon B. Johnson, John F. Kennedy, and Harry S. Truman) all reduced public debt as a share of GDP, while the last four Republican Presidents (George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and Gerald Ford) all oversaw an increase in the country’s indebtedness.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa101/janblount/percentgdp.png

If you will look at the column titled "Increase Debt/GDP (In Percentage Points), you will see that Bus I, Reagan and Bush II ALL had bigger increases than Obama. How can you look at the very article YOU CITE and still not see that?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 03:37 pm
@snood,
Reagan:

11.3% + 9.3% =20.6% / 8 years =+2.575%per year

GHW Bush

13%/4 years =3.25%per year

Clinton

-7% + -9% = -16%/8 years =-2% per year

Shrub

7.1% + 20.7%=27.8%/8 years =3.475% per year

Obama

9%/2 years =4.5% per year

It is pretty clear to me that you Snood are making the elementary mistake of not factoring the time frame, that you are claiming that spending 100K over two years on your credit cards is the same as spending 100K over 8 years.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 03:54 pm
@snood,
And this chart is providing an unfair comparison.
You are comparing less then 3 years of Obama to 8 years of Bush or Reagan.

Even you are smart enough to know that when making comparisons like this you should at use the same time frame.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 06:27 pm
@mysteryman,
We will come back to this after Obamas second term.
snood
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 09:05 pm
@mysteryman,
"Even you" are smart enough? And I remembered you as someone who had to be provoked into getting snarky, MM. But, forward...

Obama has presided for just about 3 fiscal years now. That makes his rate of adding to the debt by percentage of GDP about 3% per year (not 4.5% as Hawkeye said). If that extrapolates into the 4th year at the same pace, he will measure up favorably against all the GOP presidents since 1980.

And the bigger pictiure has to do with trends. Are you in agreement that the republicans have had a worse record than the Dems, using the "increase in debt as a percent of GDP" metric?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:20 pm
@snood,
Quote:
(not 4.5% as Hawkeye said).
Wrong, the debt data covers only the first two years, we see if it improves at all with the inclusion of year three...it should because while the amount of new borrowing is nearly the same as year two GDP is up a bit.

Re your chart Snood

Quote:
But this chart, originally created by the office of House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, is as phony as a three-dollar bill. Our friends at PolitiFact did a pretty thorough takedown of it in May, giving it their worst rating: “pants on fire.” They even caught the Pelosi people in a bad mathematical error, based on the fact that the Democrats calculated the numbers as if Obama took office a year later than he did.

That error greatly reduced Obama’s supposed percentage increase (from 35 percent to 16 percent) and boosted George W. Bush’s increase (from 86 percent to 115 percent). Pelosi’s office corrected the math error after it was spotted by PolitiFact, but amazingly, the chart that turned up in several places in our Facebook feed was the old chart.

But even with the corrected number, this is still a Four-Pinocchio whopper. Let’s explain why.



The Facts
The person who posted this on Facebook noted: “From the US Treasury Dept — any questions?” But it actually is not a Treasury Department calculation, just manipulated data taken from the Treasury Web site.

The chart has some basic conceptual flaws. For instance, as the debt keeps getting higher, the possible percentage increases will keep getting smaller. Under the mixed-up logic of this chart, a person can go from 10 to 20, and that would be a 100 percent increase. If the next person goes from 20 to 30, that’s only a 50 percent increase, even though the numerical increase (10) is the same.

The chart also cherry-picks the data that portray Obama in the best light by claiming to show “public debt” but in actuality using the statistics for gross debt.

Gross debt includes intergovernmental transactions such as bonds held by Social Security and Medicare, but public debt is the more commonly used figure of national indebtedness, at least among economists.

If the chart actually used public debt rather than gross debt, it would have put Obama and George W. Bush virtually in the same league — 60 percent increase (as of September 2011) for Obama versus 70 percent for Bush — even though Bush served as president much longer.

But the biggest problem is that this is just dumb math. What really counts is not the raw debt numbers, but the size of the debt as a percentage of the gross domestic product. The GDP is the broadest measure of the national economy and directly indicates the nation’s ability to service its debts. In fact, the White House budget office historical tables portray much of the data as a percentage of GDP, because that is the best way to truly compare such numbers over time.

If the chart were recast to show how much the debt went up as a percentage of GDP, it would look pretty bad for Obama after not even three years in office. In fact, Obama does almost twice as poorly as Reagan — and four times worse than George W. Bush.

Reagan: plus 14.9 percentage points
GHW Bush: plus 7.1 percentage points
Clinton: down 13.4 percentage points
GW Bush: plus 5.6 percentage points
Obama: plus 24.6 percentage points


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/a-bogus-chart-on-obama-and-the-debt-gets-a-new-lease-on-life/2011/09/28/gIQAx40Y6K_blog.html

I am not surprised that you latched on though, as you are one of the worst left wingnuts around A2K.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 12:26 am
@mysteryman,
It's not fhe time frame that matters; it's the Great Recession that Bush left for the next president.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 12:39 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
it's the Great Recession that Bush left for the next president
The Great Recession was caused by systemic problems with the global economy and the resulting lack of faith in that economy.....it was built over decades. You people who blame it all on Bush look peevish and clueless. Let's us not forget that Obama has been one of the most militantly obstinate global political leaders when it comes to fixing the problems. Just last week it was proposed that we institute a global financial transaction tax to raise some much needed money for governments and to dampen the speculation (bubble making and popping) that has been so damaging, Obama's response was "over my dead body". Obama is a one trick pony, when the engine is not working right all he knows how to do is to open the throttle (stimulate with debt), he has shown not the slightest desire to even admitt the known flaws in the global economy, much less work to fix them (ie fix the damn engine)....that is a big reason why we will likely now move from the Great Recession to a full on depression for the first time in 80 years.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 12:43 am
@RABEL222,
There are going to be some very happy people on 11/3/12 and some very miserable ones as well.

Prozac sales are going to explode.

Either way, I think the intensity level in the emotions will be higher for Republicans than Democrats...unless Sarah Palin ends up the GOP nominee.

As miserable as I will be if Obama wins a second term, I think there are plenty of liberals who will plumb much greater depths of despair and misery should Palin win the White House.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 01:15 am
Oh, I'd thoroughly agree with you there, Finn, though not, I'm sure, for the reason you think. I've really never seen a field of candidates so likely to be complete disasters for the country should they become president as the current Republican runners--a couple of outright loons, a total egomaniac or two, none with the values most of the country, other than the most hardcore conservatives, share, and one oily operator who'll say anything and deny snything he's ever said before if he think it'll get him elected, who is still the closest thing to a viable candidate you've got, mostly because he's got good hair. Yes, I'll be miserable if any of them gets elected, because I really fear for the future of the country with any of them in the White House. And by a year from then, should that outcome happen, there'll be something in excess of 350,000,ooo million Americans who'll be as deeply appalled at who they chose, assuming the country still survives.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 02:36 am
@MontereyJack,
According to most liberal Democrats, Obama is a center or even center right president. They're not looking to dump him as the nominee in 2012, but the bloom is off the rose and the kool-aid has already started to taste like cheap sugar water.

Maybe they're hoping that without the pressure of re-election over his head, Obama will revert to true form and be the guy they hoped he would be back in 2008, when he was pledging to close Gitmo on Day 1 of his administration and talking to that plumber Joe about redistributing wealth. If he doesn't they're not going to be dancing in the streets again if he wins in 2012. If he loses though, Republicans will be dancing in the streets and it will be because he's gone.

I don't know if there is a Democrat who is to Republicans what Sarah Palin is to Democrats, not even Obama himself. I used to think Bill or Hillary Clinton generated the same degree of hatred among Republicans as Palin does among Democrats, but not anymore.

Both Bill and Hillary Clinton have prompted some irrational loathing in Republicans, but it was hard for a lot of them not to experience some reluctant fondness for Bill the Likeable Rogue, and for a while Hillary got some sympathy for being the long suffering wife. She also received some respect (albeit begrudged respect) from Republicans who perceived her as taking Obama on from a lunch box position somewhere at least within sight of the Center on a clear day.

On the other hand, for Democrats, Sarah Palin has no redeeming qualities. Zero, nil, none, bubkus. Her motherhood is insulted as is her appreciation for nature and outdoor activities Her occasional pithy frankness is found to be nauseating and she is mocked even for her good looks. To top off the full extent of the pathology of Palin Derangement Syndrome there are plenty of her critics who think that her son with Down’s Syndrome is fair game for nasty and tasteless "humor."

Obviously Liberals and Conservatives think very differently, even as far as the symbolism and analogies they employ.

For conservatives the prospect of a second Obama term will have them thinking of moving to a different country, and if there was even more horrendous possibility they might consider shooting themselves.

Liberals can't take the dole with them if they leave the country so that will never be the penultimate consideration for them. Maybe if one of the current candidates for the Republican nomination wins the presidency, despondent Democrats will consider forcing him or her to leave the country.

What consideration do they save for the worst of all possible catastrophes, a presidential victory by the Apex Predator, Sarah Palin? What might the liberal equivalent of conservatives shooting themselves be? Rather than approach that uncivil path I will leave it to your imaginations.

Oh.... I just thought of someone whose winning a four year term as Chief Executive of our government and Commander in Chief of our military might cause me to contemplate suicide: Michelle Obama.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:02 am
@hawkeye10,
You're wrong. Bush is responsible xfor having created the environment of loose government oversight of wall street, the two wars he started that was not paid for, and creating the political division in this country never experienced in our history.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:02 am
Upon further reflection I realize that there are some subjects which are totally inappropriate to joke about, even if one refrains from actually spelling out the possibly offensive punch line.

Unfortunately, I crossed the line with my prior post when I wrote about what outcome Democrats might consider in the event of an election catastrophe, that was the equivalent of Republicans thinking about shooting themselves.

Even though I didn't explicitly describe the consideration, I'm sure everyone is fully aware that I was referring to wearing a hair shirt purchased from Wal-Mart’s.

There are some things even the most despairing Liberal will never do, and even though anyone in their right mind knows this is one of those things, and I didn't actually spell it out, I shouldn't have made light of so offensive an action.

I sincerely apologize.
 

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