H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 03:27 pm
@mysteryman,
JTT is an anti-American ignoranus.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Mon 2 May, 2011 03:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think MM's response was to JTT's constant U.S. bashing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 03:37 pm
@realjohnboy,
I'm always ready to harp on mm, because he jumps on me for no reason too often. Besides all that, I'm more in JTT's corner than most, because what he posts are facts about our country that most Americans are immune to or ignorant of the atrocities we commit in other countries. If JTT's posts are untrue, I'd like to see more factual responses that disproves his claims.

PS, I was against Obama's increase of 30,000 more troops in Afghanistan. I would have preferred to see that money spent in our country to help so many Americans in need. We do enough killing in this world.
JTT
 
  0  
Mon 2 May, 2011 03:57 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
So its safe to assume that you favor a complete, 100% withdrawal of the US from every other country?

Would that include all of the medical aid, the food aid, the disaster relief, and every other type of aid the US provides?
Should we close the CDC to all foreign countries and doctors?
Should we stop all of the food we ship around the world?
Should we recall the US hospital ships that are stationed all over the world, helping in medical disasters?

Do you favor a strict isolationist policy for the US?


You keep asking these same inane questions, MM, with the same silly examples.

Why would anyone think it good policy for the US to become even stingier than it already is with the wealth that it has stolen from numerous countries over the last century?

Why didn't you include all these, above, in the thread that I started so you could show "all the good things that the US does"?

Would you like me to provide a link for you to that thread, which I must remind you never got one response to "all the good things the US has done/does?

How in the world do you figure that all this nonsense that you asked, above, has anything to do with a discussion of the rapacious, laden with war crimes behavior that the US has engaged in for over a century?

By what standard are people who commit war crimes pardoned by their good deeds?


Quote:

And I find it interesting that you wont say where you live, or where you are from.
You want to condemn the US with everything you type, but you refuse to divulge where you are from.
Is that because you are ashamed of where you are from?


A complete non-issue.

What's truly interesting is how there isn't a person who has ever addressed the myriad facts that come from US government sources that show the criminal behavior of those same governments.

It's not a question of,

Are successive US governments guilty of war crimes/mass murder/...?

It's only a question of how much? Consider if government records were made completely open.

Here's just one little example. I hope that you have the honesty and the decency to read it and comment.

Quote:

The War Behind Me: Vietnam Veterans confront the truth about US war crimes

Excerpt


On November 12, 1969, the Dispatch News Service carried investigative reporter Seymour M. Hersh’s first article on the My Lai massacre. [1] In the weeks that followed, photographs appeared in print and on television. The army announced a full-scale inquiry that, four months later, confirmed the magnitude of the slaughter and the cover-up. [2] The tragedy and its fallout are in every credible history book on the Vietnam War.

The army launched a second important inquiry in the wake of Hersh’s exposé. But this one would receive no public notice. The chief of staff quietly assembled a team of officers to collect information on other war-crime allegations that had been reported internally or elsewhere. The men culled investigation files, surveillance reports, press accounts, court-martial records, and congressional correspondence. Each month they summarized what they’d found and sent a memo up the chain of command.

They operated in secret for five years. During that time, they amassed nine thousand pages of evidence implicating U.S. troops in a wide range of atrocities.[3] In contrast to the My Lai investigation, their inquiry led to no major actions or public accounting. In fact, the Pentagon kept the entire collection under wraps, even after the war ended.

In 1990, Kali Tal, founder of Viet Nam Generation, a small journal of contemporary history and literature on the 1960s, was tipped to the papers’ existence. She requested a declassification and Freedom of Information Act review. After a year had passed, the National Archives and Records Administration notified her that the documents were available for inspection.[4] She found the records deeply disturbing and posted a short notice in her journal to alert others. She did not pursue the matter further, and the boxes returned to the storeroom shelves.

A decade later, Cliff Snyder, a Vietnam specialist on the Archives staff, brought the cartons to the attention of Nicholas Turse, a visiting military historian.[5] While researching them for his dissertation, he came across a 1968 massacre and other cases he believed to be newsworthy. In 2005, he contacted the Los Angeles Times about them. I was the newspaper’s Washington investigative editor at the time, so his e-mail was relayed to me. We joined forces soon afterward to investigate the long-buried reports.[6]

When I proposed the project to John Carroll, then the Los Angeles Times’ top editor, his first question was whether a few rogue units committed most of the crimes. That had been his impression as a young Vietnam War correspondent, and a commonly held view. The most notorious was the Americal Division, responsible for My Lai and a lengthy list of less-known atrocities. The Tiger Force, an elite army platoon, became a late addition to the club with the Toledo Blade’s Pulitzer Prize–winning series in 2003 that documented a seven-month killing spree in which scores perished.[7]

The archive collection contained hundreds of sworn statements from soldiers and veterans who committed or witnessed rapes, torture, murders, massacres, and other illegal acts. There were letters from soldiers, statistical reports, and case summaries.[8] When we hand-entered the data into a spreadsheet, it became clear the problem was much bigger than a few bad men: Every major division that served in Vietnam was represented. We counted more than 300 allegations in cases that were substantiated by the army’s own investigations. Some had never been revealed; others had been publicly disputed while the army remained silent about its findings. Five hundred allegations couldn’t be proven or weren’t fully investigated.[9] According to officers who helped compile the records, those numbers represented only a small fraction of the war crimes committed in Vietnam.

Many veterans tried to alert the Pentagon and the public to the problem in the early 1970s at forums sponsored by such groups as Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Most famously, John Kerry, then a leader in the organization, testified on Capitol Hill on April 22, 1971, that U.S. forces had “raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war....”[10]

Within days, the declassified records show, the White House quietly requested a list of war-crime investigations from the army.[11] The staff at the Pentagon was ready with a lengthy response that reported 213 suspects and included confirmed cases of acts from the litany cited in Kerry’s testimony.[12] Yet the Nixon administration went ahead with an aggressive backroom campaign to discredit as fabricators and traitors Kerry and other veterans who spoke out about war crimes. The president and White House aides worked closely with a rival organization, Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace, to publicly condemn the allegations.[13] “The big lie” became the group’s familiar drumbeat. Years later, the founder of the group would boast, “Americans got the message that a motley crew of exaggerators and frauds didn’t speak for Vietnam veterans.”[14] The impression stuck. By the mid-1980s, the whistle-blowers largely had been silenced, and conventional wisdom held that atrocities in Vietnam were overblown.[15] The controversy resurfaced in 2004, when Kerry ran for president. His old detractors ran ads demanding that he disavow his 1971 testimony, confident they would play to a receptive audience; their efforts contributed to his defeat.[16] All the while, the army had evidence in its files that he had spoken the truth.

But this book isn’t about Kerry. It’s about setting the record straight for the many ordinary men who were ignored, threatened, or disbelieved. It’s a place for them to tell their stories again, now with the full force of the army’s own investigation findings behind them. Years ago, many of them hoped their accounts would pressure the Pentagon to stop “all the wrong killing,” as a soldier wrote in a private letter to then army chief of staff Gen. William C. Westmoreland in 1970.[17] The war ended without an accounting or acknowledgment of the war crimes they witnessed. Their retelling comes at an equally important time when, having failed to address the past, we’re destined to repeat it.

http://www.thewarbehindme.com/excerpt.php
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 2 May, 2011 03:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm more in JTT's corner than most

No ****, seriously?
JTT
 
  0  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:11 pm
@H2O MAN,
You missed the operative words.

"because what he posts are facts about our country that most Americans are immune to or ignorant of the atrocities we commit in other countries. If JTT's posts are untrue, I'd like to see more factual responses that disproves his claims."

I expect that we'll see a substantive, factual response from you shortly, right, h2oman?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That was mighty brave of you, CI. I suspect that it will soon earn you an invite to both Gob's and Finn's houses for dinner.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:33 pm
@JTT,
Not brave or looking forward to any invites. I just post what I believe to be the truth in any situation.

At my age, there's not much to be afraid of, or to try to win or lose friends. I just let it all hang out! I just try to be honest with myself.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree with you.
Now, show where I have EVER supported cutting all govt expenditures.
I have never done so, and you know it.

I have also gone on record as saying that I support cuts in the military, but you seem to have conveniently forgotten that fact.

And while I freely admit that the US isnt perfect, and that the US has done some pretty awful things, I dont believe, as jtt seems to, that the US is the source of all evil in the world.

He has advocated the US leave the rest of the world alone, yet when challenged on it, he never answers.

So, its a direct question, that requires a simple one word answer.

In jtt's mind, should the US abandon all of its obligations, all of its commitments, all of its treaties, and retreat back to our own soil?
Should we simply turn our back on the world.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:47 pm
@mysteryman,
I was responding to your own words.
Quote:
Would that include all of the medical aid, the food aid, the disaster relief, and every other type of aid the US provides?
Should we close the CDC to all foreign countries and doctors?
Should we stop all of the food we ship around the world?
Should we recall the US hospital ships that are stationed all over the world, helping in medical disasters?

Do you favor a strict isolationist policy for the US?


spendius
 
  0  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Do you favor a strict isolationist policy for the US?


That would be incoherent for the American psyche.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
MM's rhetorical questions - couched in gentle sarcasm me thinks - start with
"Should we..."
not
"We should..."
Would you agree that there is quite a difference if you juxtapose those 2 words?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:06 pm
@realjohnboy,
Certainly, but to even suggest such idiocy goes against the grain of common sense - imho. It's still extremism.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:18 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
He has advocated the US leave the rest of the world alone, yet when challenged on it, he never answers.


That's a lie, MM.

Quote:
So, its a direct question, that requires a simple one word answer.

In jtt's mind, should the US abandon all of its obligations, all of its commitments, all of its treaties, and retreat back to our own soil?
Should we simply turn our back on the world.


You're raising a red herring. And you are lying again. I've never suggested that.

The US, like any civilized country in the world, should do the things that other civilized countries do. That includes not illegally invading sovereign nations. That includes not installing brutal dictators that act as proxies for the US to torture and murder.

That also includes giving aid without tying that aid to US conditions only meant to advance the position of the US.

Being a good world citizen means sharing your wealth with those less fortunate. It doesn't mean setting them up in order to take more of their wealth.

But most of all, it means, "stop your terrorist actions around the world, stop killing people who have done nothing to you just so that you can grab their wealth".

Do you think the CIA is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, MM?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:25 pm
@realjohnboy,
"gentle sarcasm", I doubt it, RJB. The guy isn't bright enough. Those were what MM thought of a real questions, important questions when they were nothing but silly red herrings, meant for, what else, diverting attention away from the real issue, US war crimes.

Need I remind you where the US is right now. In two countries trying to position itself to grab more wealth. Do you think that it's any different than in the 1950s when the US made a huge grab for Iran's wealth?

Guess what, they got it largely displacing the UK. What was the price? Thirty years of brutal suppression under the Shah. Torture, advanced torture taught to SAVAK by that wonderful US aid group, the CIA.

okie
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:28 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

"gentle sarcasm", I doubt it, RJB. The guy isn't bright enough.
Brighter than you are!!
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:32 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

JTT wrote:

"gentle sarcasm", I doubt it, RJB. The guy isn't bright enough.
Brighter than you are!!


Agreed

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  4  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:38 pm
Checking in on A2K quickly, there is probably a thread on OBL's being killed, but I think it is appropriate on the Obama thread to give the president credit for continuing the policy of hunting the guy down. I think it is a continuation of the Bush policy to hunt him down, but nevertheless I give Barrack credit for carrying it out.

Contrary to some that might celebrate, I don't think the killing of anyone is something to celebrate about, but it was nevertheless an appropriate action in his case. I am not going to falsely believe however that Al Qaeda is done for, as there will be others taking the reins and pushing their agenda. However, this at least serves notice that we are not going to lay down and let them do whatever they please.

An interesting, almost unbelievable aspect of this, OBL was housed in some pretty sumptuous surroundings, right next to a Pakistani military training academy no less!!!! Q question arises, what about Pakistan? i understand however that Al Qaeda may be moving to other places, such as some African countries.

Anyway, good work President Obama, and special compliments to the elite in the military that carrried out this mission.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Mon 2 May, 2011 05:44 pm
@okie,
Wow, this replicates my other posts on the subject almost exactly.

I agree that it's appropriate in this case, and that it's a strong blow the AQ. I think there was a sort of pall cast by our inability to catch the guy over the years, and with this lifted, our teams that focused on this difficult task can use their skills and training to hunt down the other bastards in AQ. The point isn't to remove the threat completely - that will never happen - but to get rid of the organizations to the best of our ability.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Mon 2 May, 2011 06:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Thank you, cyclops. Coservative or liberal, bottom line we are Americans.

One of the benefits of finding the place where he was, might be gaining more information on the other cells and cogs in the Al Qaeda network?

I heard one person on the radio express the sentiment that this operation was almost comparable to entering Hitler's bunker. I don't know about that, but it will surely go into the history books.
0 Replies
 
 

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