Obama '08?

I don't believe it's a matter of losing their credibility; that's been lost a long time ago. If you still believe okie-ican understands economics or politics and its history, facts, common sense, logic, consistency, or honesty, you're barking up the wrong tree.

okie continues to disagree with georgeob about Hitler's Marxist-socialism, and believes the 25-points Hitler published - disregarding history.

I give you an A+ for patience, but you flunk in understanding personalities such as okie and ican who's rhetoric are based on FOX News - and not much else.

Well, you and I know that b/c we've been at this for years. But a lot of people just read, or get linked here from somewhere else. When they see people spouting crap and nobody challenging it, there tends to be a belief that maybe what these folks are saying is true.

I feel that there's a responsibility on the part of those who have put a lot of thought and effort into these issues to ensure that lies don't go un-countered. I understand that there are different political philosophies and viewpoints out there; but that's not an excuse for plain ignorance or a lack of information, masquerading as wisdom, or heaven forbid, 'common sense.'

Cycloptichorn

People who are interested in the truth will arrive at their own conclusions about okie and ican. It'll be educational for them.

To be honest with you, cyclops, I do not know precisely what caused the latest recession, and I would add that I do not believe anyone including yourself know the precise answers either. I have an opinion, which I will offer, and I am sure you have your opinion as well.

First of all, I believe the economy is cyclical by nature, and from time to time it must rise and fall, which is somewhat analogous to the stock market going up and down on an hourly, daily, weekly, and yearly basis. There are numerous factors involved in an economy, too many for any of us to understand and quantify exactly or precisely.

With that introduction, I believe the cause of the recession is multi-faceted and not due to any one factor by itself, although there might be a trigger at some point in time that releases the build up of factors. I also believe a factor or number of factors can build up over a period of time, somewhat analogous to small atmospheric conditions causing clouds, and those clouds growing bigger and bigger, eventually causing mild to serious weather changes. Similar to the economy, there might be a point in time when the movement or collision of cold air with those atmospehric conditions that could trigger a major change in weather.

In my opinion, some of the most important longer term factors that fed into the current situtation probably includes what I list below:
----- Cultural influences upon society and the workforce in general. Those cultural influences include more single parent households, drug use, etc.
----- A failing educational system, which relates also to cultural factors, resulting in high school dropout rates, so that we are not providing a skilled workforce needed in a highly technical world.
----- Factors that do not maximize our ability to compete in a world market in terms of manufacturing, etc. These include our domestic tax policies, too much union influence in some industries, and over regulation, all of which have driven jobs out of the country. We have become a nation of consumers more than we are a nation of producers, and that is due to some of the factors listed.
Now, to address the shorter term reasons for why the current recession happened when it did. We have been told that the housing crisis ignited the recession, and I think I agree with that as the major short term cause. This of course takes us right back to what caused the housing crisis. I remain convinced that one of the causes was too much government intervention into the home loan market, which caused too many loans being made in high risk property areas and to people with marginal credit worthiness. Because Fannie and Freddie were highly involved and would purchase bundles of loans, it became a feeding frenzy for banks to make more loans and then resell them for a profit. As with any "house of cards," once the foundation of the house is found to be unsustainable, it begins to cave in. The entire market is affected, because the value of every house is not stand alone, they depend upon other homes and the overall quality and value of the neighborhoods involved.

Of course government is not the only factor or culprit involved, but they are one. We could also point out the failure of various sectors of the economy, such as the auto industry, in which the cumulative effects of unions, taxation, over regulation, and other factors all built up to the point that we lost our competitive edge to foreign auto makers. The auto industry would then greatly impact certain cities and states in particular, such as Detroit and Michigan. The impact would have a domino effect upon the housing market in those areas as well.

To summarize, cyclops, both longterm and short term causes of the recession are multiple in nature, and I remain convinced that to fix the problem we must apply conservative tried and true principles to the problem. This is probably not the answer you wanted, but I give you my honest opinion.

Do you now agree to answer one of my questions?

No - because you didn't do anything but spout off ideology. Ideology didn't cause the crisis, specific events did. You don't know what those events were and you're not curious about it. When I asked my question I specifically told you not to engage in this behavior, but you seem to have ignored that.

You also don't seem to be able to distinguish between the 'housing market crash' of 2008 and the 'financial crisis' of 2008. They aren't the same thing. You don't seem to be able to discuss the financial crisis or know much about it - which is what I asked you about.

Instead you wrote a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with the topic and isn't based on any data. Not compelling.



You're wrong about that. I and many others know the precise reasons it happened. Because we've studied them in depth.

You haven't, and instead of admitting that others know more about it than you do, you claim that NOBODY knows. That's farcical. It's a matter of historical record now and available to anyone who wants to put in the time to research it.

My advice to you - and this is serious - is that if you don't understand why something happened, shut the **** up about it and quit pretending like you do. Or take the time to learn. This intellectual in-curiousness you are displaying is disappointing and not worthy of my time.

Until you can do some actual scholarship I have no interest in engaging you in further discussion on this topic. I'll just ridicule you like others do. It makes me regret defending you to other people when you can't man up and admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

Cycloptichorn

... and if you think I'm wrong, prove it. Tell us, what was the event that triggered the recession? How did it unfold? How did it take down major banks and trading houses? Why did we have to bail out so many banks?

I won't hold my breath

Cycloptichorn

You are becoming mighty testy and confrontational, cyclops! It seems more than usual for you? Is it because the administration is floundering? And ideology does influence economic policies, whether you know it or not.
I doubt the recession is due to one specific event or a few specific events, but oh well, go ahead and educate me.It is my impression that they are inter-connected, cyclops. I am not an economist, but neither are you, are you?
That is your opinion, thats all. I think what I wrote had everything to do with the topic, but you simply did not like my answer. If you are so clever, how come you are not part of Obama's cabinet then? If you know the precise reasons, you would also know the precise policies to fix the mess we are in, but your compadres in office are certainly not figuring it out. Okay smarty pants, if you know so much, and its a matter of historical record, how come Obama hasn't fixed it by now?Thats a two way street, cyclops. Practice what you preach.

Is this a serious question?

The problem is complex enough that it can't be fixed with an easy wave of the hand. But I'll point out that the Dems worked on doing exactly that -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_Reform_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

- and the Republicans fought them every step of the way. They watered reforms down as much as possible, anything to please their masters in the Financial industry. And they are still fighting to keep anything that would have kept the problem from happening from being addressed, at all.

You're a sham, Okie. You pretend everything is simple because you don't understand complex problems.

Cycloptichorn

The consumer protection act is named after the two guys that said there was absolutely no problem with Fannie and Freddie, cyclops. That does not gender much confidence in the supposed fix by Democrats. And Dodd is the same guy that personally received a sweeheart loan from Countrywide, the same company in the midst of the meltdown. You can't be serious, cyclops?
I agree with Ronald Reagan, who said "There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right."
Going back to guys like Frank and Dodd to fix the problems is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Calling me a sham indicates you are getting a bit hysterical. I think you need to take a step back and take a good look at why your administration is failing. Principles and ideology do matter.

Said Ronny, as he arranged for the slaughter of 40 thousand Nicaraguans.

Maybe this could be your "starter", Okie. The war crimes of the Reagan administration. It's a biggee, lots of international crimes and loads of domestic felonies. Are you up to it?

Remember there a thread specifically for Crimes of American presidents and other world leaders.

Are you resorting to Ad Hominem attacks, because you don't know what the regulation bill does?

You asked what Obama was doing about it. I told you what he did about it. You don't know anything about that - I guess you weren't paying attention when this passed last year - so you try and attack them instead. Not compelling to anyone.



Yeah, he was an Alzheimer patient who barely could tie his own shoes his last three years in office. I bet you do agree with him; he's like an avatar of ignorance that you pray to.



Always resort to attack when you have no defense, right Okie?

Or perhaps you could tell us what's wrong with the financial reform bill. Go right ahead.

Cycloptichorn

You are describing yourself, cyclops.
I admit to criticizing Frank and Dodd, and I think it is deserved and pertinent. As an analogy, do you think it is wise to have foxes devise new chicken house regulations?
I honestly do not know anything about it, but suffice it to say I am skeptical, given it is Obama's and the Democrats idea of fixing a problem. If I had 24 hours per day to devote to studying politics, I could study it soon, but frankly I don't have that kind of time, so it will have to wait until it becomes a higher priority to me.

If you don't know anything about it, why are you criticizing it? Why are you claiming that Obama and the Dems didn't do anything about it?

This is the whole point I'm getting at. 'Not knowing anything about it' should be a clue to 'not talk about it' and especially to 'not criticize it.' But you never let that stuff hold you back. That robs you of credibility in these discussions.

I spend 2-3 hours a day studying economics and politics. Which is why I feel comfortable talking about these things.

Cycloptichorn

I think we will need time to see how it plays out. I don't recall criticizing the bill specifically, but I did say I was not optimistic about it, given who pushed the bill through. I still think Frank and Dodd should have had to face more scrutiny and perhaps resign following the Fannie and Freddie fiasco.

I wonder if I might like some aspects of the bill, because I have always detested credit card companies and payday loan businesses, if there are things in the bill to straighten those people out some.

Interesting, you spend 2 to 3 hours per day studying this stuff? Is that part of your job, or are you doing it on your job? In case you have forgotten, I did get an admission out of you that you posted on this forum, using your job time and the computer provided by the university there.

3 or 4 hours for me, but I am semi-retired and don't have a tv and don't listen to talk radio where you are told what to think.
How much time are you willing to commit to comprehending issues?

Saul Alinsky trained three of Barack Obama's mentors in Chicago who trained Barack Obama. Barack Obama was hired in 1986 by the Alinsky team to organize residents on the South Side. The proposed solution to every problem on the South Side was distribution of government funds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAUL ALINSKY
http://www.infed.org/thinkers/alinsky.htm
The radical is not a reformer of the system but its would-be destroyer;

The radical is building his own kingdom, a kingdom of heaven on earth;

The revolutionary’s purpose is to undermine the system by taking from the HAVES and giving it to the HAVENOTS and then see what happens;

The most basic principle for radicals is lie to opponents and disarm them by pretending to be moderates and liberals;

"The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution."The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the revolution;

Radical organizers do not have a fixed truth—they are political relativists--truth to them is relative and changing-- everything to them is relative and changing;[/quote]

Radical organizers take an agnostic view of means and ends;

We should not forget to acknowledge the very first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom—Lucifer;

We are not virtuous by not wanting power. We are really cowards for not wanting power, because power is good and powerlessness is evil;

To say that corrupt means corrupt the ends is to believe in the immaculate conception of ends and principles.

Life is a corrupting process;

He who fears corruption fears life;

The standard of the revolution is democracy--a democracy which upends all social hierarchies, including those based on merit;

Radical organizers build their initial power base among the underclass and the urban poor by calling to make both last ones and first ones last ones.
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GEORGE SOROS
http://www.earstohear.net/soros.html
In his 1995 book, page 145, Soros on Soros, George Soros wrote, I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

Bruck, in The World According to Soros, page 58,Tividar [George Soros's father] saved his family by splitting them up, providing them with forged papers and false identities as Christians, and bribing Gentile families to take them in. George Soros took the name Sandor Kiss, and posed as the godson of a man named Baumbach, an official of Hungary's fascist regime. Baumbach was assigned to deliver deportation notices to Jews and confiscate Jewish property. [Baumbach] brought young Soros with him on his rounds.

Michael Kaufman in his biography of George Soros, page 293, Soros , My goal is to become the conscience of the world.

GEORGE SOROS in his 2000 book, page 337, Open Society, Usually it takes a crisis to prompt a meaningful change in direction.

GEORGE SOROS in the Washington Post, page A03 of November 11, 2003, Ousting Bush from the White House is the central focus of my life. It's a matter of life and death.

GEORGE SOROS in the 2003 edition of his book, page 15, The Alchemy of Finance, My greatest fear is that the Bush Doctrine will succeed--that Bush will crush the terrorists, tame the rogue states of the axis of evil, and usher in a golden age of American supremacy. American supremacy is flawed and bound to fail in the long run.

What I am afraid of is that the pursuit of American supremacy may be successful for a while because the United States in fact employs a dominant position in the world today.

GEORGE SOROS on June 10, 2004 to the Associated Press, These are not normal times.

GEORGE SOROS in his 2004 book, page 159, The Bubble of American Supremacy, The principles of the Declaration of Independence are not self-evident truths but arrangements necessitated by our inherently imperfect understanding.

In April 2005 the Soros funded Campus Progress web site posted this headline: "An Invitation to Help Design the Constitution in 2020" (This was an invitation to a Yale law School Conference on "The Constitution of 2020: a progressive vision of what the Constitution ought to be.")

Sam Hananel in his associated Press article, December 10, 2004, On December 9, 2004, Eli Pariser, who headed George Soros's group Moveon PAC, boasted to his members, "Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it."

Soros … pushed for the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 which was intended to ban "soft money" contributions to federal election campaigns. Soros has responded that his donations to unaffiliated organizations do not raise the same corruption issues as donations directly to the candidates or political parties.

Soros gave $3 million to the Center for American Progress, committed $5 million to MoveOn, while he and his friend Peter Lewis each gave America Coming Together $10 million. (All were groups that worked to support Democrats in the 2004 election.) On September 28, 2004 he dedicated more money to the campaign and kicked off his own multi-state tour with a speech: Why We Must Not Re-elect President Bush[19] delivered at the National Press Club in Washington, DC.
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MORE RECENT GEORGE SOROS
http://sandrarose.com/2009/11/george-soros-plot-to-create-a-new-world-order-through-the-destruction-of-the-us-economy/

George Soros is a multibillionaire Globalist whose millions in political contributions financed Barack Obama’s campaign for president.

Soros is Obama’s biggest benefactor.

Soros tells America to stop resisting the New World Order.

Soros tells America not to resist the decline of our economy.

Soros says he is hoping China will lead the New World Order once the American economy has declined.

Highlights from Soros’s “new world order” TV interview:
“…an orderly decline of the dollar is desirable”

“It’s ill-considered on the part of the United States to resist…”

“It is not necessarily in our interests to have the dollar as the sole world currency.”

“A decline in the value of the dollar is necessary in order to compensate for the fact that the U.S. economy will remain rather weak…”

“China will emerge as the motor replacing the U.S. consumer..”

“China will be the engine driving (the New World Order) forward.
“The U.S. will be actually a drag that’s being pulled along through a gradual decline in the value of the dollar.”
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BARACK OBAMA
http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=altavista&itag=ody&q=Barack+Obama%27s+redistribution+of+wealth&kgs=1&kls=0

http://www.barackobamataxplan.com/obamas-wealth-redistribution/

Barack Obama is an employee of George Soros.

Saul Alinsky was the mentor of Barack Obama’s mentors, and of George Soros.
Soros iss Obama’s employer. Barack Obama advocates the redistribution of wealth by taking wealth from the rich who earned it, and redistributing it to the not rich who did not and do not earn it.
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The Tea Party Movement is our country’s primary hope of stopping Soros and his employee, Obama, from destroying our Constitutional Republic and turning us into serfs of a lawless state.

Good post, ican. Too bad more people are not informed about who Obama was, what he learned, and how he learned it.

I am still trying to figure out how you organize a community? The community where I grew up in Oklahoma was already organized a very long time ago.

Of course, we know that "community organizer" is merely a fancy name for teaching people how to game the system and gain political power. That means more to them than simply living responsibly as individuals and as families.

Okie.

are there any black people near where you live?

There were many where I grew up, in town at least, which is where I was talking about. There still are. What difference does it make? After all, they never needed to organize. The vast majority of them lived responsibly, went to school, worked for a living and raised families responsibly.

on their own side of town?