Obama '08?

@plainoldme,

Just maybe, ican-okie is a schizo.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Just maybe, ican-okie is a schizo.

That, too!

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

you posted opinion, not academic consensus.

Okay, I will try again. I asked you once to post the absolute reality of what is left vs right instead of discussing various opinions, but you never provided it. If you think academic consensus, whatever it may be, is absolute reality, then I would be interested to hear it. I will anxiously await your documentation of what left vs right is, as determined by academic consensus, and why you think that is reality and not simply also someones opinion. Rather than continuing to muddy up this thread however, you could post it here and we can continue the discussion here: http://able2know.org/topic/67312-1

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

As contrived a piece of dialog as one could hope to find in a life time of searching.

How about proving anything that I wrote was wrong and provide solid evidence of the same?

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@okie,

In reality, there is no way to describe left vs right, because of all the explanations already stated. Nobody is strictly left or right; many cross over from one to the other depending on the issue at hand. It's too bad, you can't figure out why US presidents and congress change from one party to the next; it's the result of the voters variance in voting whether they belong to the democratic party, republican party, or independent. That's a fact; try to remember this.

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@cicerone imposter,

I disagree. I think it is obvious that left vs right can be described and defined. That of course does not preclude the fact that some people do not entirely subscribe to leftward or rightward philosophies on every issue. At no time have I ever claimed anything to the contrary, ci, so please read my posts more carefully.

I think however that we have a president that is pretty liberal or left on almost every issue. Hopefully, once the citizenry figures out the pendulum has gone too far left, they will vote overwhelmingly Republican and more conservative in the next election.

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@okie,

You have by implication; calling everybody "liberals" or "leftist," and how they're going to destroy this country.

Go back to what I wrote about voting records. Those are facts, not opinions.

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@cicerone imposter,

No, correction again. I don't by implication call everyone liberal or leftist. Some are mostly conservative, examples being ican and mysteryman. We used to have Foxfyre on this forum until she became discouraged with it. There are also other apparent conservatives. However, many seem to be predominantly Democratic or liberal in their views, including you, ci.

I do in fact believe that ultra liberal policies are not beneficial or good for the country. I am very opposed to Obama and the current Congress. I believe we need to return to more sound policies, in particular more responsible and sound economic policy. And we need to return the government to more locally controlled jurisdictions away from bigger and more powerful federal government. In the area of specific programs, I would like to see Obamacare completely repealed and we start over.

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@okie,

Contrived is not a synonym for wrong.

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@okie,

okie, You even try to assign a political designation to me, even after explaining I do not vote by party, but by who is running, and it doesn't matter which political party they belong to. Your stuck in a gear that can never change; boring.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

In your post to okie, you say, "You even try to assign a political designation to me."

The crux of the matter is okie's attempted assignment. I have described myself at number 9 on a scale between center and most left leaning which is numbered from 1 to 12, with one being the center. okie totally misinterpreted that statement and wrote several angry responses about people who deny they are left of center without naming me. I had no idea his comments were directed at me and I why would I have known that when I have never made a secret of my beliefs and I write and speak in a literal fashion?

okie demonstrates a persistent inability to understand what is written here. He gives little evidence of reading anything beyond this forum. His political opinions are so off-base that it is difficult to recognize them, let alone understand their origins.

However, for okie to "assign" a position to you is sheer egotism and bullying on his part. No one, least of all okie, is a mindreader.

1 Reply

Is this really a sign of a "success" for the admin?
A 48% failure rate!!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-50-percent-leave-Obama-apf-156629129.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nearly half of the 1.3 million homeowners who enrolled in the Obama administration's flagship mortgage-relief program have fallen out

snip

Quote:

Approximately 630,000 people who had tried to get their monthly mortgage payments lowered through the government program have been cut loose through July, according to the Treasury report. That's about 48 percent of the those who had enrolled since March 2009. And it is up from more than 40 percent through June.

So either this program is seriously screwed up, or the rules and paperwork are so daunting as to cause people to quit.
Either way, I cant really call this program a success.

1 Reply

ODDEM (i.e. , Obama Democrat Disassembler Encroacher Maligner) are Leftists.

(1) The Left seeks more government control over people's lives, and the Right seeks more individual control over people's lives;

(2) The Left seeks more equal distribution of wealth, and the Right seeks more merit distribution of wealth;

(3) The Left seeks more dependence by the needy on government charity and less dependence on private charity, and the Right seeks less dependence by the needy on government charity and more dependence on private charity.

Oh yes! One more! Few members of the Left have the willingness, or is it the capability. or is it the courage, or is it the honesty to specify what they perceive to be true of Leftists.

(4) The left rarely specifies what the Left thinks and regularly specifies what the Right thinks, and the Right regularly specifies what the Left thinks and regularly specifies what the Right thinks.

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@mysteryman,

Good afternoon, MM. I could never understand this program. I guess the concept was that the loan modifications (reducing interest rates, reducing monthly mortgage payments while the recession was raging, with the shortfall to lenders being made up after the recession ended) would reduce the number of foreclosures and stabilize the housing market.
Do you think that is a fair description of what the plan was?
The problem, beyond the ineptitude in administering the program, was that it was targeted towards homeowners who probably should not have gotten mortgages in the first place. Still, it could perhaps have worked if we had had a really, really short recession.
Instead (and I fault the article you cite for not making it clear), the recession we are in is much more prolonged and the decline in home values is much more severe. The delinquencies on mortgage payments and the number of foreclosures is spreading into the arena occupied by mortgagees who once had incomes sufficient to service their loans. But they have lost their jobs or need to relocate.
I guess the program might have had merit in theory. But it accomplished little.

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@realjohnboy,

You're seeing this problem the same way I see it; they're not helping by trying to float people's mortgages when they shouldn't have been approved the loans in the first place. Our government - including Obama - seems to make more wrong decisions than good ones. I used to consider him intelligent, but how is that possible with all the wrong decisions he has made since his inaugural.

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@realjohnboy,

Thats why I said it was an "either or" situation.
From reading the article, it wasnt real clear exactly what the problems were, only that it wasnt working.

In theory, it was a good idea.
But almost everything is a good idea on paper, its when its actually put into practice that the true problems come out.
All in all, I think this is one program that needs to be scrapped.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

All good and accurate points, ican. Apply Hiter to those measures, and he comes up leftist no doubt. For example, compare your points to
Nazi point #7. "We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood."
Nazi point #10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.
Nazi point #11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
Nazi point #13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
Nazi point #14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

Those are just a hint of what can be dug up about the subject of Hitler being clearly leftist.

Has it ever occurred to you okie that, despite near absolute power in Germany, Hitler didn't bother to do any of these things - except for the slave labor bit: he appeared to like that.

You run on at very tedious length with excerpts from various arcane sources listing excerpts of his propaganda, but focus very little attention about what Hitler actually did with his power once he achieved it. Worse, you ask us to believe that your sources define what Hitler "really was" - while the facts of what he did tell us all the opposite.

Some of your political views make sense; many don't. The contrived rhetoric you employ to "persuade" others is not only illogically constructed and misleading, it is also well-designed to increase the opposition of those you are ostensibly trying to persuade. This is irrational behavior on your part and you should ask yourself why you do it.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

pom, I do not recall your admission of being 3/4 toward Extreme Left. I do not think I would disagree with that. Also, please quote what you call my "misinterpretation" and "angry responses" that I posted about folks that deny they are left of center. Either prove it or apologize, one or the other, that would be totally reasonable. That is a challenge, yet another one for you.

Another challenge, please provide evidence why my wholly reasonable assessment of ci as someone that has Democratic or liberal opinions on most issues is sheer egotism and bullying. Facts are facts, and it takes no mindreader to read someone elses posts here and come up with a reasonable opinion about them. If you have no evidence, providing an apology is requested.

As ican has pointed out and I agree, I think most conservatives proudly state that they are conservative and have little hesitance to try to define what conservatism is and why they are conservative, while the Left is not nearly so anxious to do the same about their chosen philosophy.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you okie that, despite near absolute power in Germany, Hitler didn't bother to do any of these things - except for the slave labor bit: he appeared to like that.

You run on at very tedious length with excerpts from various arcane sources listing excerpts of his propaganda, but focus very little attention about what Hitler actually did with his power once he achieved it. Worse, you ask us to believe that your sources define what Hitler "really was" - while the facts of what he did tell us all the opposite.

First of all, my sources are not particularly "arcane." I looked up the term, "arcane," and one source said it meant requiring secret or mysterious knowledge, which would be nonsense. There is nothing mysterious about the Nazi 25 points, they are all available for all to read from numerous sources. They are public knowledge, as is the reading of Mein Kampf, it is not secret information, George. Secondly, I think it is quite disingenuous of you to claim Hitler did none of those things except slave labor. I understand he began to confiscate property as well as businesses, and besides, how much time did he have to devote to a non-war economy while occupied with the war? Precious little, and there is little reason to believe that if he had been successful in subduing all of his war opponents, that he would not set about to do exactly what the Nazi Party platform advocated. George, I think there is little to no evidence that Hitler planned to do something wholly different than what the Nazi 25 point plan outlined, once there was time to do it following the war. Plus there is much validity to the argument that his program of killing Jews was in fact due to his professed hatred of the Jews because of their inherent poison of their capitalistic greed, which is totally and completely an ultra leftist mindset and motivation. It seems wholly reasonable that the Jewish extermination and other actions were part of what Hitler considered perhaps clearing of the deck in preparation of the real policies of the Nazis in the new Germany. We can discuss this more at length, George, but everything I have pointed out here is founded solidly upon fact, not some "arcane" reference. Besides, have you posted even one link to evidence the fact as you apparently believe it, that Hitler was a right wing conservative? Have you posted anything at all?

Quote:

Some of your political views make sense; many don't. The contrived rhetoric you employ to "persuade" others is not only illogically constructed and misleading, it is also well-designed to increase the opposition of those you are ostensibly trying to persuade. This is irrational behavior on your part and you should ask yourself why you do it.

There you go characterizing what my political views are like, but I think it would be infinitely more useful if you actually identified what you disagree with and why, along with evidence for your reasoning, George.

Again, I suggest taking this subject to the Dictator thread instead of continuing to muddy up these threads on other subjects.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

In reality, there is no way to describe left vs right, because of all the explanations already stated. Nobody is strictly left or right; many cross over from one to the other depending on the issue at hand. It's too bad, you can't figure out why US presidents and congress change from one party to the next; it's the result of the voters variance in voting whether they belong to the democratic party, republican party, or independent. That's a fact; try to remember this.

Cice, assuming no one or no political party is strictly left or strictly right does not change what is left and what is right. Whether one or a political party is more left or more right depends on all that one or a political party advocates.

I recommend you read, "The 5000 Year Leap, The 28 Great Ideas That Changed the World," by W. Cleon Skousen, National Center for Constitutional Studies. Here are some excerpts from pages 9 thru 15:

Quote:

It is extremely unfortunate that the writers on political philosophy today have undertaken to measure various issues in terms of political parties instead of political power. No doubt the American Founding Fathers would have considered this modern measuring stick most objectionable, even meaningless.
...
the American Founders measured political systems in terms of coercive power or systematic control which a particular system of government exercises over its people. In other words, the yardstick is not political parties, but political power.

Using this type of yardstick, the American Founders considered the two extremes to be ANARCHY on the one hand, and TYRANNY on the other. At the one extreme of anarchy there is no government, no law, no systematic control, and no governmental power, while at the other extreme there is too much control, too much political oppression, too much government. Or as the Founders called it, "tyranny."
...
The founders political spectrum might be graphically illustrated as follows:

...................RULER'S LAW ......................PEOPLE'S LAW.............................NO LAW

(TYRANNY)<==============================>(ANARCHY)

1 Reply

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