Obama '08?

To complete the story, ci, my parents both remained Democrats, one is deceased now, but neither voted for a Democrat for national office in the past 20 years or so. My dad, a Pacific War vet, detested both Clinton and Kerry for primarily their record in regard to the military. Both of my parents felt that the party had left them, although they never changed their registration. My parents came to understand the Democrats were big spenders and big government, vs caring about the rights and responsibilities of us, the people, and they realized that is not how they believed Americans should be and think.

You have contradicted yourself again; you always talk about lefties as if they're one voting block.

I don't believe you have answered any question on who "lefties" are? Please provide us with a description, so we'll get some education on politics in America.

Okie certainly has answered many times your question on who he thinks lefties are. Howver, you have not answered my question on who you think lefties are.

As ican has pointed out, I have answered that many times. Once again I will try to do it for you, ci. In general terms, the left believes that individual rights are granted by government, that government can and should solve most problems, and that government should govern at the expense of individual rights and responsibilities for the supposed common good as the leaders interpret it for all citizens, which essentially results in various forms or extents of socialism. The right believes in individual rights and responsibilities and they believe wholeheartedly in the Declaration of Independence when it says our rights are endowed by God instead of government, and they believe the Constitution along with its Bill of Rights, which emphasizes individual rights and responsibilites along with the limit in size and scope of government.

I even started a thread to debate the differences between left and right, as they are being specifically applied in policy areas here in this country, and proposed 21 different points or policy areas for which the debate could be related to.
http://able2know.org/topic/67312-1#post-1794416
Since I think quoting all 21 points is not necessary to go into that detail here, I will quote from that thread what I wrote about just points #1 & #2, #6 through #8, and #16, which I think is more than sufficient to define what I think defines left vs right here in the U.S. As you can see, the definitions under the points cited are consistent with the larger picture, the broader points that I initially explained to you, ci.
"1. Left is bigger government to oversee most societal activities. Right is minimal government, to include defense, police protection, international trade, etc.
2. Left is more governmental control in commerce and higher taxes. Right is more free market and lower taxes.
6. Health Care - Left is for complete government oversight and management of this industry, while Right pulls for as much individual choice and responsibility for their own health care.
7. Welfare - Left means more, while Right wants more personal responsibility.
8. Left means more federal control of education. Right means less, and more local control.
16. Private Property Rights - Left for less, Right stands firmly for.
"

One could clearly see where Hitler would stand when compared to the above definitions. Since this Hitler being left or right has been such a prolific subject in terms of people commenting on it on many threads, I am tempted to start another thread totally dedicated to that. What does anyone think about that?

Unless it is building a mosque in NYC. Then it appears the Right isn't so firm when it comes to property rights.

okie wrote: Individual rights are granted by the Constitution; it's called equal rights.

okie wrote: . How did you arrive at this stupid idea? Please provide proof/evidence for this claim.


okie wrote: See my answer for your first quote; it applies here as well. Otherwise, our government is responsible for national security, and making laws that support our Constitution. Your reference to "supposed common good" is a no-brainer that only you can interpret, and thus have absolutely no meaning.

okie wrote: That's your personal opinion that has no basis of reality to it. 1) No republican accepts social security or medicare, 2) No republican uses our public transportation system, 3) All republicans will refuse universal health care.

Your opinions fail in so many ways, I'm confused as to how anyone can take you seriously.

Okie, your characterizations of Leftists and Righists are excellent.

However, to make the debate more easily understood by the Left, I've simplified the issue of the Left versus the Right by the following:

(1) The Left seeks more government control over people's lives, and the Right seeks more individual control over people's lives;

(2) The Left seeks more equal distribution of wealth, and the Right seeks more merit distribution of wealth;

(3) For truly needy people, the Left seeks more dependence on government charity and less dependence on private charity, and the Right seeks less dependence on government charity and more dependence on private charity.

Have you ever heard of zoning? It has nothing to do with property rights, it has to do with land use. In our town the Planning & Zoning has much to say about how a property can be used. One is free to own it, but that does not mean you can do anything with it or build anything there. For example, try to buy a Civil War Battlefield somewhere and do anything you might please there.

What has zoning have to do with this particular issue? There are mosques in the same neighborhood.

All good and accurate points, ican. Apply Hiter to those measures, and he comes up leftist no doubt. For example, compare your points to
Nazi point #7. "We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood."
Nazi point #10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.
Nazi point #11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
Nazi point #13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
Nazi point #14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

Those are just a hint of what can be dug up about the subject of Hitler being clearly leftist.

Are there mosques being built on Civil War battlefields, ci? Or on the site of the plane crash near Shanksville, Pennsylvania? Just a couple of questions for some homework you need to do. Also, do you think the zoning department in Somerset County, Pennsylvania might have something to say about that if a mosque was proposed there?

Are there Catholic Churches or Buddhist Temples being built on those same grounds?

People like you only get yourselves deeper into nonsense when you try to justify bs, and you really should have called it quits when you were a little bit ahead of the curve of smarts.

I doubt it. I doubt they would be dumb enough to try it.

Why? It's only your suggestion that came up with it.

Again, read the posts. I did not suggest it. I only used the Pennsyslvania plane crash site as an example or comparison to where the planes flew into the towers. Please read the posts, ci.

okie, Are you really that stupid? But I repeat myself; you're the one suggesting some dumb idea about building some church on any site. You called it zoning or some such.

Earth to ci. It was not me that suggested building the equivalent of a church on top of Ground Zero. I think Ground Zero has a bit of meaning to the city and country in terms of zoning, ci.

you posted opinion, not academic consensus.

I am convinced that okie and ican are one and the same. Every time "either one" posts, said post is immediately given a thumbs up and their posts appear suspiciously in tandem with too great a frequency to be coincidence.

As contrived a piece of dialog as one could hope to find in a life time of searching.