Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:17 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Ultra leftist hatred on display here, folks. The Left is motivated by emotion, including hatred of what is moral and right.


You're blind to your own hate, Okie. You hate everything that is at all 'right of center.' You accuse those who take ANY actions you don't deem 'Conservative' of being 'marxists' and 'ultra-leftist.' You sure as hell aren't saying these things as compliments to people.

The idea that Republicans are any less motivated by emotion is a joke. The only difference is that the emotions that motivate you are Greed and Fear.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I hate nobody. I do oppose Obama, but I do not hate the man. I speak the truth about Obama's sympathies to Marxism, and you know it, cyclops. No, I do not refer to his Marxist sympathies as a compliment, just as I would never compliment you by saying you also have Marxist sympathies, which you have in fact admitted to. Greed is wanting something you aren't willing to work for, and that does not include me, I don't even play the lotteries because I think they prey on the unfortunate and the weak in mind. I would rather obtain something through hard work and by earning it, not by luck as a result of somebody elses bad luck. Marxism and Socialism is the ultimate of greed, taking from the people that earned something and giving to people that didn't, that is greed. Look cyclops, I am not against charity, in fact I participate in it, but I am against the greed of forced taking and forced giving in the name of buying votes. Fear is another term you have no clue what your are talking about or know how to define. Fear is a real thing and a good motivator is used in the right manner. I see it used all the time as a means of demagoguery by the Democratic Party, but you are too blind to see it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:33 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

I hate nobody. I do oppose Obama, but I do not hate the man. I speak the truth about Obama's sympathies to Marxism, and you know it, cyclops. No, I do not refer to his Marxist sympathies as a compliment, just as I would never compliment you by saying you also have Marxist sympathies, which you have in fact admitted to.


I believe the strongest possible system to be a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, which is what we currently have to some degree. I don't know what you mean when you say 'Marxism' and never have. That's a label that you put on me, not one that I ever admitted to.

Quote:
Greed is wanting something you aren't willing to work for, and that does not include me, I don't even play the lotteries because I think they prey on the unfortunate and the weak in mind.


That is not the definition of greed. From:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed

Quote:
Main Entry: greeda selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed


It has nothing to do with 'being willing to work for it.' It has nothing to do with redistributing money. It has everything to do with wanting ever-increasing stacks of money and objects. This is a large segment of your personal ethos and that of all Conservatives, Okie.

Quote:
I would rather obtain something through hard work and by earning it, not by luck as a result of somebody elses bad luck. Marxism and Socialism is the ultimate of greed, taking from the people that earned something and giving to people that didn't, that is greed. Look cyclops, I am not against charity, in fact I participate in it, but I am against the greed of forced taking and forced giving in the name of buying votes.


That has nothing to do with Greed at all. You are re-defining words to try and suit your conversation, but you are wrong to do so.

Quote:
Fear is another term you have no clue what your are talking about or know how to define. Fear is a real thing and a good motivator is used in the right manner. I see it used all the time as a means of demagoguery by the Democratic Party, but you are too blind to see it.


What a crock of ****. Your party lives and breathes off of Fear and the application of it. Fear of Terrorists, Fear of Atheists, Fear of Muslims, Fear of Blacks, Fear of Gays. Fear of the Poor. That basically sums up your social and foreign policies right there.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You and not me are 100% wrong, and you appear incapable of adequately recognizing and explaining your own logical holes.

You show zero understanding of the first causes of America's financial collapse by your resort to your libelous retorts.

What you demonstrate repeatedly is mindless adherence to Odem doctrine by making claims you do not support with either logical or factual evidence.

Your mindless adherence to the doctrine that proving a negative is impossible, provides strong evidence that you are incapable and/or unwilling to think for yourself.

THINK! One frequently successful way of proving a NEGATIVE true is to prove its INVERSE false. For example: the claim that Obama WAS NOT born in the USA would be proven TRUE, if it were to be proven TRUE that Obama WAS born in Kenya.

In case you do not know:
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged
Main Entry: 3inverse
...
Function: noun
...
1 : something of a contrary nature or quality : OPPOSITE, REVERSE <had no luck with his experiment so he tried the inverse of this process and got a positive result
...
2 : the result of an inversion ; specifically : a proposition which is inferred immediately from another and in which the subject term is the negative of the subject of the given proposition and the predicate term is unchanged <the inverse of "no purposeful effort is entirely wasted" is "some not-purposeful effort is entirely wasted"

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:47 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

What you demonstrate repeatedly is mindless adherence to Odem doctrine by making claims you do not support with either logical or factual evidence.


I wrote an extensive post outlining the history of the financial crisis a few pages back, which you didn't reply to. So you are incorrect when you say I don't use facts or logic; the post was chock full of them.

If you claim that you use logic and facts, then prove it. Let me ask you a simple question: how did Fannie and Freddie lead to the collapse of the trading houses Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers? Please be as SPECIFIC as possible and include every step of the process.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -4  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I believe the strongest possible system to be a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, which is what we currently have to some degree. I don't know what you mean when you say 'Marxism' and never have. That's a label that you put on me, not one that I ever admitted to.Cycloptichorn

Do you realize one form of a combination of capitalism and socialism was called the "Third Way," under Mussolini, and another term for it was "Fascism.?" Do you realize that, cyclops? Under Hitler, it was called "Nazism."
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:52 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I believe the strongest possible system to be a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, which is what we currently have to some degree. I don't know what you mean when you say 'Marxism' and never have. That's a label that you put on me, not one that I ever admitted to.Cycloptichorn

Do you realize one form of a combination of capitalism and socialism was called the "Third Way," under Mussolini, and another term for it was "Fascism.?" Do you realize that, cyclops?


I realize that you know so little about history, that any time you attempt to analogize something to historical events, the exact opposite is more likely to be true then whatever it is you are claiming.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 03:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I realize that you know so little about history, that any time you attempt to analogize something to historical events, the exact opposite is more likely to be true then whatever it is you are claiming.

Cycloptichorn

Even the dumbest okie with an ounce of common sense has more smarts than a Berkeley intellectual, because at least I have not been indoctrinated with leftist garbage all of my life. You know what I said is absolutely right about Mussolini, the Third Way, Fascism, etc., cyclops, get over it and have the courage to face the truth.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:02 pm
@okie,
Quote:

Even the dumbest okie with an ounce of common sense has more smarts than a Berkeley intellectual


No, they don't. This is something that the dumbest Okies sit around telling each other in order to not feel bad about their mental deficiencies.

Quote:
You know what I said is absolutely right about Mussolini, the Third Way, Fascism, etc., cyclops, get over it and have the courage to face the truth.


In fact, I know you are completely wrong as usual. Here. Do some research for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28centrism%29

Yes, Mussolini referred to his politics as the 'third way.' But that's just one of a huge variety of political and economic theories associate with that. And as you have no learning in these matters whatsoever, rather then try and understand the larger issue involved, you just cherry-pick whatever you think will make an effective weapon in a conversation.

This is intellectually weak - and a first-year student wouldn't submit such tripe and expect to be taken seriously.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your outline of the history of the financial crisis was false.

Fannie's and Freddie's expansion and encouragement of subprime mortgages led to other lenders rapidly increasing subprime mortgages, which led to the collapse of the economy, which led to the collapse of the "trading houses Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers" and then others.

Quote:

2006
*04/18"Freddie Mac pays a record $3.8 million Federal Election Commission fine.
*05/23"Fannie Mae’s regulator announces that Fannie Mae has for years overstated reported income and capital by $10.6 billion.
*05/25"Senator John McCain calls for GSE regulatory reform legislation, warning: "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole.”
*11/07"Democrats win majorities in both houses of Congress. The U.S. economy is growing at about 3 percent, unemployment is at 4.5 percent, and inflation under 2 percent.

2007
*06/23"Two Bear Sterns hedge fund groups collapse due to their mortgage investments.

Quote:

http://www.stock-market-investors.com/stock-investment-risk/what-caused-the-current-financial-crisis.html
What Caused the Current Financial Crisis?

As you are all probably aware, the US is currently experiencing the biggest financial crisis after the Great Depression. And just like this past worldwide economic downturn, marked with massive bank failures and the stock market crash in 1929, today we witness the unforeseen bankruptcy of big, trusted banks and extreme market volatility.

But how did we get into this situation? This article will try to explain the original causes of the current US financial crisis and its effect on the world economy.

Preceding Factors Contributing to the Financial Crisis
When examining the causes for the financial crisis most people start directly with the real estate market (the place where the crisis really began) focusing on the subprime mortgages and unscrupulous lenders and casting the blame on the unsustainable real estate bubble which began to collapse in 2006.

Whereas this is true, it is not the whole story. The whole real estate bubble originated mainly as a response to the huge demand of financial assets. And since not many places can actually provide such assets, naturally in such situations speculative bubbles come on the stage and become part of the supply response of financial assets to the demand of such assets.

This was the case with the real estate bubble too and that was one of the main factors leading to the current financial crisis: the excess capital globally pushed an enormous amount of money into the US mortgage market thanks to the securitization and the fact that almost 80% of the US mortgage market is securitized.

The Problem with Securitization of Mortgages
Basically, securitization is a wonderful financial vehicle. Mortgages are pooled together as securities and sold to investors. Of course, as securities, they can also be resold. Securitization creates diversification and liquidity. It also "smoothes out" the idiosyncratic risk of defaulting or going bankrupt.

Despite the existing lack of clarity and transparency (investors did not fully understand these vehicles and after all, it was hard to get information which houses are included in the pool) regular conforming mortgage backed securities were considered very low risk and were sold to investors not only in the US but also around the world.

And then, the idea of generating higher returns originated. Mortgages were now offered to high risk borrowers too, at the cost of significantly higher mortgage rates. Those subprime mortgages were put in big pools of assets from which the so called "Mortgage Backed Securities" were created. Often, the mortgages were actually broken into pieces and grouped and packaged with other mortgage pieces of the same type. Thus, financial instruments and vehicles like SIV, CMO, CDO, MBS and etc. seemed like a great solution to the great demand of assets and the idea was that the yields on such securitized subprime mortgages would also be higher.

However, the problem with securitization stems from the fact that it does not provide protection against systematic risk. And unfortunately, such a systematic risk was also not priced into the subprime mortgage pools... not until things went wrong and subprime borrowers started defaulting on their mortgages.

Reasons behind the Large Scale of the Crisis
As we already noted, credit rating agencies didn't take into account the possible systematic risk and blessed the apparently low risk securities with AAA rating. Pension funds, mutual funds, some money market funds, banks and investors from all over the world purchased such securities thinking that they are safe. And as for the riskier securities, they also had their clientele - the hedge funds. Thus, the markets absorbed enormous amounts of these securities.

Additionally, because investors considered such securities low risk, they leveraged them. In other words they invested more than they actually had capital for.

This liquidity and the fact that these instruments became so widely spread among investors of all types and sizes now stand behind the great scale of this financial crisis.

The Shock
The subprime lending increased the homeownership rate in the United States significantly and about 5 million people went from tenants to homeowners. As a result, rents went down and house prices went up till they reached unsustainable heights relative to rents.

However, in contrast to the stock market, in the real estate market when the asset prices rise more assets are created through construction. Between 2001 and 2007 the construction of new housing units exceeded significantly the new household formations and naturally this housing bubble could not grow up infinitely.

Thus, when the rise in housing prices stopped in 2006, inevitably many subprime borrowers had difficulty making their mortgage payments. The housing bubble and particularly the excesses of the subprime mortgage market became even more evident when many subprime mortgage lenders began declaring bankruptcy around March 2007. This problem started to gain crisis proportions and yet, the financial authorities and the Federal Reserve believed that it was an isolated phenomenon. Well, they were wrong.

Instead, in mid-2007, the losses in the subprime mortgage markets triggered surprising turmoil throughout the international financial system, given the presumed small size of the US subprime market compared to the global financial markets. The crisis spread with amazing speed to other markets and even to financial institutions that had no direct exposure to the subprime mortgage market.

Confidence in many financial institutions was shaken and the stock market witnessed systemic weakness across financial sectors. The share prices for large, small, and investment banks all significantly dropped and between July 2007 and March 2008, lost about a third of their value. What is more, banks stopped trusting other banks and interbank lending was disrupted.

March was marked with the demise of Bear Stearns, in July IndyMac Bank went into receivership, but the deepest fall of all was the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September, 2008. The financial system was in cardiac arrest and after the events in September, 2008, the panic escalated and the crisis spread beyond the financial markets, now affecting directly the mainstream too.

old europe
 
  3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:24 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
You know what I said is absolutely right about Mussolini, the Third Way, Fascism, etc.

Classical *guilt by association* fallacy. Yes, Mussolini advocated a "Third Way", but not everyone who advocates a third way is Mussolini. Tony Blair has famously advocated a "Third Way"; that doesn't make him a totalitarian dictator.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:26 pm
@ican711nm,
SEARCH ARGUMENT:
What caused the current financial crisis?
Quote:

http://www.altavista.com

AltaVista found 17,300,000 results

True Cause of the Current Financial Crisis
The true cause of the current financial crisis is the reckless promotion of buy-and-hold investing for 28 years after the academic research showed that it cannot work.
www.passionsaving.com/cause-current-financial-crisis.html
More pages from passionsaving.com

What Caused the Current Financial Crisis?
This article will try to explain the original causes of the current US financial crisis (probably the biggest after the Great Depression) and its effect on the world ...
www.stock-market-investors.com/stock-investment-risk/what-...ent-financial-crisis.html
More pages from stock-market-investors.com

Root causes of the current global financial crisis | Ya ...
Root causes of the current global financial crisis. Published: Wednesday, 25 June, 2008 ... The current financial crisis, just like any crisis, did not happen in ...
yalibnan.com/site/archives/2008/06/root_causes_of.php
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Subprime mortgage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Causes. The crisis can be attributed to a number of factors pervasive in both ... This credit freeze brought the global financial system to the brink of collapse. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis
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MidSouth Bank's Cloutier Testifying Before Financial Crisis ...
MidSouth Bank's Cloutier Testifying Before Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission on Causes of Financial Disaster
tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/prnewswire/press_release...isiana/2010/01/12/DA36409
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Causes: Where Did All That Money Come From? " The Baseline ...
Causes of the current crisis: Baseline Scenario explores possible causes of the current ... markets to prevent the total collapse of the global financial system. ...
baselinescenario.com/2008/12/06/financial-crisis-causes-us-china-trade-imbalance
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Economics Essays: What Causes a Currency Collapse?
For example, at the start of this year, Iceland had a current account deficit of around 7 ... Lower rates don't usually cause a collapse in a currency, but, they will make the ...
econ.economicshelp.org/2008/12/what-causes-currency-collapse.html
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Think Progress " Former Housing CEOs: Poor People Did Not ...
RAINES: I do not believe that poor people are the cause of the current financial crisis, nor do I believe defaults on the loans that they might hold is the cause. ...
thinkprogress.org/2008/12/09/myth-fannie-freddie
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Financial crisis of 2007"2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Background and causes. The immediate cause or trigger of the ... This credit freeze brought the global financial system to the brink of collapse. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932010
More pages from en.wikipedia.org

What is the main cause of the current financial slowdown ...
... who is breathing - no questions asked - whether they qualify or not. That led to financial institution's collapse which resulted in a domino effect. ...
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090920083524AApmTU3
More pages from answers.yahoo.com

Sponsored Matches Become a sponsor
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H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:28 pm
@Gargamel,
Gargamel wrote:

As fond as our nation is of instant nostalgia, NOBODY misses that retard.


You may think your use of the word "retard" is clever, but it only confirms that you are an ignorant liberal supremacists.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:33 pm
@ican711nm,
You posted someone else's explanation, because you cannot explain it yourself. Not only that, but your 'explanation' below doesn't blame Fannie or Freddie in the slightest, but instead the cause I outlined: poor choices by investors and Greed.

Quote:

Fannie's and Freddie's expansion and encouragement of subprime mortgages led to other lenders rapidly increasing subprime mortgages, which led to the collapse of the economy, which led to the collapse of the "trading houses Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers" and then others.


Do you know how dumb this makes you look?

Bear Stearns collapsed in March 2008. The stock market collapse didn't take place until September of 2008, after Lehman collapsed. The collapse of the market could not have affected things months before it actually happened; so your time-line above is in fact completely incorrect.

Not only that, but Fannie and Freddie had no significant levels of Subprime or Alt-A mortgages prior to 2006. So when you said 'Fannie and Freddie ENCOURAGED subprime mortgages,' you are 100% incorrect. Again.

Not only that, but you completely glossed over how Stearns and Lehman brothers got involved in subprime mortgages in the first place. Explain to us how that happened, please, in detail; because these are assets that were decidedly non-typical for investment companies to be in.

What a waste of my time. You don't even know the most basic facts. My earlier assessment was correct: you are not worth talking to on this issue, due to incompetence and a lack of caring about your incompetence.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:41 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.altavista.com

SEARCH ARGUMENT:
What caused the current financial crisis?Quote:

AltaVista found 17,300,000 results

...

Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:43 pm
@ican711nm,
Why are you posting search results?

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your repeated libeling of me and others with whom you disagree is valid evidence that you do not know what you are posting about.

Your continuing failure to provide evidence to support your claims is valid evidence that you do not know what you are posting about.

I shall repeat my claims here, in response to your posts, as many times as your posts, in response to my posts, prove them correct.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:56 pm
@ican711nm,
The truth is that you are doing a good enough job showing your ignorance, Ican, that you hardly need me to point it out.

Are you going to respond to the fact that your timeline was incorrect and full of lies? Or bother to explain how Bear Stearns got involved with Mortgages, or all things? I am betting you will not, because you don't understand these things.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -3  
Tue 4 May, 2010 04:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
So you can do your own research and not have to:
(1) rely on libeling those with whom you disagree;
(2) fail to provide evidence to support your claims.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Tue 4 May, 2010 05:03 pm
Let the record show that you are content with your ignorance, and unwilling to answer further questions to prove you are not ignorant. I believe that you have been as soundly defeated as anyone ever can be in an online conversation.

/done

Cycloptichorn
 

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