Obama '08?

@ican711nm,

oh boy, did obama send osama a christmas card?

0 Replies

Quote:

...
Yesterday's meeting between President Obama and the 60-member democratic caucus means we've reached the end game on the Senate ObamaCare vote.

But the meeting and Obama's claim that we are "on the precipice"
to passage are all part of a grand deception scheme that, sadly, is on the verge of succeeding.

First... The legislative text of the new Reid bill HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED. There is NO BILL for your Senators to actually see and read, and NO BILL for you to see and read!

THE REAL WORK AND THE REAL DEALS ARE TAKING PLACE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS!

Second, what's really happening amounts to pure bribery.

With YOUR MONEY, Reid and Obama are trying to buy
the votes of swing senators to the tune of hundreds of
millions of dollars. Reports indicate that Sen. Ben Nelson
may have been offered $500 million in earmarks for his
state in appreciation of his support of ObamaCare.

Also, we're told that in Reid's latest plan, the "public option"
has been removed. But has it? (I guess we're supposed to take Reid on his word that the not-yet-seen 2,000+ page bill does not include a public option!) And does it matter...

With or without a formal "public option," ObamaCare
means government-run health care. ObamaCare still is
based on the unconstitutional "individual mandate,"
includes massive tax increases, imposes an oppressive new
government bureaucracy and puts the government in
charge of your health care.
...

2 Replies

@ican711nm,

wait, are you suggesting that politicians are buying off politicians in order to get them to agree with them

i'm shocked Shocked

1 Reply

@djjd62,

Me too! (This has been going on for ever.)

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Suffice it to look at one question posed to cyclops and his answer.
Here is the question.:

Further, let us assume for the sake of discussion that there is in fact indisputable evidence recognized by everyone that Obama has strong sympathies toward Marxism and perhaps would like to incorporate facets of that idealogy in the United States? Let us assume for the sake of discussion here that this has been determined to be the case almost for sure. Cyclops, would that bother you? On a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being you would have absolutely no concern whatsoever, to perhaps 5 being moderately concerned, and a 10 would be hey, lets vote the man out next election this is very serious, I do not want someone in office with those beliefs, what number between 0 and 10 would you be?

You answered with a zero, you would have zero concern.

The only logical conclusion from that, cyclops, is that you are a Marxist, otherwise a president that is known to want to incorporate facets of an idealogy that has been responsible for untold suffering and deaths of tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people during the course of relatively recent world history would be at least of some slight concern to you instead of absolutely no concern. I think you would have answered at least a one, if you had even an ounce of sympathy or belief in freedom and capitalism. That would simply be common sense to anyone that can add two plus two in regard to politics and history. If you had answered a one or a two, or maybe three, I would not have to conclude that you are pure Marxist, perhaps you are just a very avid socialist, but no, you gave it a zero. A very telling answer.

I think this exercise should provide ample evidence to everyone in regard to your mindset, cyclops, and how you think.

I could also go into the "might makes right" question as well, as it is at least as illuminating into your mindset, as you stated that the only reason humans do not give rights to animals is that they are more powerful, and that we egotistically think we are superior to animals, not because we actually are or because we are created higher by God to have dominion over them as the Judeo/Christian philosophy teaches us, and that our laws have always followed. I am not quoting you exactly, but I believe I have captured the essense of what you have posted about this. So, since you do not think animals are any less valuable than humans, it logically follows that any human could also do whatever they wish to any other human if they have the power to do it, as cyclops as described that we do to animals. After all, humans are no better than animals in his book.

1 Reply

@okie,

Quote:

I could also go into the "might makes right" question as well, as it is at least as illuminating into your mindset, as you stated that the only reason humans do not give rights to animals is that they are more powerful, and that we egotistically think we are superior to animals, not because we actually are or because we are created higher by God to have dominion over them as the Judeo/Christian philosophy teaches us, and that our laws have always followed. I am not quoting you exactly, but I believe I have captured the essense of what you have posted about this. So, since you do not think animals are any less valuable than humans, it logically follows that any human could also do whatever they wish to any other human if they have the power to do it, as cyclops as described that we do to animals. After all, humans are no better than animals in his book.

This is correct; our dominion over animals is based solely on our power over them. It is not based on any inherent blessing from some invisible dude in the sky.

I think that you will find, that any human can do whatever they wish to those they have power over. Humans hurt, beat, steal from, rape, and kill other humans all the time. Don't know if you've noticed. Society is the process of the masses coming together to build an enforcement mechanism to combat this. It is very effective in doing so. Even so, in this we are no different than many different animals, who do the same thing within their own purview.

There exist no natural laws, no innate morals, which keep humans from hurting other humans, or place us above animals. Instead, human laws place us above other animals, and the power of our intelligence and tool use enforces those laws. My point on this subject has continually been that man is no different than the animals he evolved from, and should respect those animals and their place in our world. This doesn't mean I'm for elevating Human rights to animals in every way; I'm eating a hamburger right now and I have no intention of stopping doing so.

Quote:

After all, humans are no better than animals in his book.

Is the average human, better than the average animal? Better to whom? Better FOR whom?

Quote:

The only logical conclusion from that, cyclops, is that you are a Marxist

You are incorrect. This is not the only logical conclusion. I would recommend re-examining your logic before making such absolute pronunciations.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

I think it is the only logical conclusion, cyclops.

And in regard to rights, I happen to believe they emanate from God, as our Declaration of Independence asserts and plainly states. I not only believe that, I believe it is the very foundation of this country, it defines our entire way of life, how we govern ourselves, and it defines what it is to be an American. And the fact is, without a belief in God, men can and will lower themselves to using the belief that might makes right, and I think that is a common thread of many of the most vicious and ruthless dictators in history, such as Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and the rest of them, they instead placed their faith in the State as the ultimate arbitor of "social justice" quote unquote, and if it meant killing anyone that got in their way, so be it. I find it interesting that you also fit that mold in regard to your lack of faith in God, but instead have a highly misguided and misplaced faith in some mystical and imaginary ability of the State to create some kind of utopia. Your hope is as hopeless as every dictator's was, and I think Obama's "audacity of hope" is just as imaginary, misguided, and hopeless, because it is essentially placing his hope in himself being some kind of messianic figure. It is frankly scary to see so many people fall for that idea so easily and so completely.

Here is what I believe, and what I thought virtually every American believed, at least at one time.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

3 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

And in regard to rights, I happen to believe they emanate from God, as our Declaration of Independence asserts and plainly states. I not only believe that, I believe it is the very foundation of this country, it defines our entire way of life, how we govern ourselves, and it defines what it is to be an American. And the fact is, without a belief in God, men can and will lower themselves to using the belief that might makes right, and I think that is a common thread of many of the most vicious and ruthless dictators in history, such as Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and the rest of them, they instead placed their faith in the State as the ultimate arbitor of "social justice" quote unquote, and if it meant killing anyone that got in their way, so be it. I find it interesting that you also fit that mold in regard to your lack of faith in God, but instead have a highly misguided and misplaced faith in some mystical and imaginary ability of the State to create some kind of utopia. Your hope is as hopeless as every dictator's was, and I think Obama's "audacity of hope" is just as imaginary, misguided, and hopeless, because it is essentially placing his hope in himself being some kind of messianic figure. It is frankly scary to see so many people fall for that idea so easily and so completely.

Here is what I believe, and what I thought virtually every American believed, at least at one time.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

interesting that enemies of america today use their belief in god for just such reasoning

you're right about not laying everything at the feet of a messianic figure like obama, it's bound to disappoint ultimately

i don't have a problem with politicians having faith, that's everyones right, and the country should support that freedom, i do prefer that my government is secular, a radical christian state would be as dangerous as radical islam

1 Reply

The Obama's and the Democrat party are changing our nations traditions and our nations history right before our eyes.

None of these changes make us a better nation.

0 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

I think it is the only logical conclusion, cyclops.

This is because you have a poor grasp of logic.

Quote:

And in regard to rights, I happen to believe they emanate from God, as our Declaration of Independence asserts and plainly states.

This is because, illogically, you are a follower of Christian mythology. You have no evidence or proof to back your position up, it's all just one big assertion. In a discussion of natural rights, that's not very useful.

Quote:

I not only believe that, I believe it is the very foundation of this country, it defines our entire way of life, how we govern ourselves, and it defines what it is to be an American.

No, it doesn't. Definitively. The founding fathers made quite sure of that.

Quote:

And the fact is, without a belief in God, men can and will lower themselves to using the belief that might makes right

That's no different than how they act when they DO believe in god. They just substitute 'God' for 'might' and then insist that God agrees with their position. It's actually worse than 'might makes right.'

Quote:

, and I think that is a common thread of many of the most vicious and ruthless dictators in history, such as Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and the rest of them, they instead placed their faith in the State as the ultimate arbitor of "social justice" quote unquote, and if it meant killing anyone that got in their way, so be it. I find it interesting that you also fit that mold in regard to your lack of faith in God, but instead have a highly misguided and misplaced faith in some mystical and imaginary ability of the State to create some kind of utopia.

You are incorrect; I do not believe the state provides 'utopia.' However, we have a lot of evidence that government can and does work, in maintaining social order; there's no reason not to believe in the power of government to do so. There's proof that it works. You, on the other hand, have no proof to back your position. Which of us is misguided?

Quote:

Your hope is as hopeless as every dictator's was, and I think Obama's "audacity of hope" is just as imaginary, misguided, and hopeless, because it is essentially placing his hope in himself being some kind of messianic figure. It is frankly scary to see so many people fall for that idea so easily and so completely.

Your analysis of his book is as flawed as your other attempts at analysis. At no point does Obama make himself out to be a messianic figure in that book.

Quote:

Here is what I believe, and what I thought virtually every American believed, at least at one time.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Those are man-made laws, exactly what I was referring to earlier: rules created by HUMANS for governing HUMANS. We didn't find this etched in stone from god, it wasn't divinely inspired. The fact that they slapped the word 'creator' in there doesn't mean that this flowed from God.

I believe in those laws, because they serve us well. But I don't believe they are some sort of moral absolute, elevating us above all other creatures, as you seem to.

Cycloptichorn

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@okie,

Quote:

Your hope is as hopeless as every dictator's was, and I think Obama's "audacity of hope" is just as imaginary, misguided, and hopeless, because it is essentially placing his hope in himself being some kind of messianic figure. It is frankly scary to see so many people fall for that idea so easily and so completely.

Cyclotroll is one of the socialist / communists in the Democrat party I speak of elsewhere.

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

.... a radical christian state would be as dangerous as radical islam

The key is the word, "radical." True Christianity is not radical, and the Jewish tradition of the 10 commandments is not radical. The difference that I see between radical Islam and what you may fear to be radical Christianity, is that radical Islam has a goal of an earthly kingdom and domination, whereas Christianity does not. In fact, radical Islam has been compared to fascism and some of the other forms of dictatorships. Christianity does stand for certain things, like the sanctity of life, liberty, and property, thus we have laws against murder, stealing, and infringing upon the liberty and freedom of other people.

I think there are some things that liberals would like to ignore or pretend does not exist, but it is a fact that America and its laws spring out of a Judeo-Christian tradition of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and a deepseated mistrust of a government bent upon taking those things away from us. The spirit of that is in the the Declaration of Independence, which still lives as one of the most profound declarations in all of history. And I think one of the liberal problems that they have is to deny even their creator and the reasons why they have the liberty and freedoms that they possess today.

I believe that if the liberal leftward factions in this country are able to rollback the spirit and letter of the Declaration of Independence, as practiced since our inception, it will result into a cataclysmic failure of the most successful nation in world history, a country that hundreds of millions of people yearned for and fought for, and countless millions came here to find refuge from the misery and lack of freedom and liberty in other parts of the world.

So, although I have not posted this yet here, I believe the vicious political battle or cultural battle raging in this country today is really at its root a spiritual problem, a growing secularism and growing lack of faith in God, which will result into a growing faith in man, which essentially is the State, the almighty State, which commonly leads to more bondage, suffering, and failure.

3 Replies

@okie,

interesting

i'm by no means religious, not a fan of the old testament god, but jesus teachings have always struck me as a good philosophy

0 Replies

@okie,

okie is too stupid to understand that no religion is "radical." Islam is not radical. They have radicals who exist in all religions.

0 Replies

@okie,

Quote:

The key is the word, "radical." True Christianity is not radical

One is forced to wonder just how much you know about Christianity... at the time of it's inception, it most certainly WAS radical.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

He doesn't know anything about it Cyclo. Nor about anything else as far as I can tell. He's a blurting machine.

0 Replies

unrelated but just came upon this h20 man post. I enjoyed it and you will too.

H2O MAN

-4 ReplyTue 19 Aug, 2008 03:22 pm @blueveinedthrobber,
Choosing Biden will make the McCain victory that much easier to attain

1 Reply

@Bi-Polar Bear,

Things may have been different if McCain had the media, the Unions and Acorn thugs working for him.

Look what the media, Unions and Acorn thugs delivered Sad

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Is it possible to talk about politics without invoking fundamental christianity?WTF? If given the choice of a ruined country that nonetheless follows the tenet of the far conservative christian right.. you know, the ones that want to save the unborn so they can send them to war later, give them full government protection while in utero so they can tell them tough ******* **** you are in poverty and have no healthcare once they're out in the world.... then give me a guy or gal who fellates demons off the clock but runs the country efficiently.

2 Replies

@Bi-Polar Bear,

0 Replies

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