I'd definitely be missing some to pursue this any further....
snoody--
You seem to be scrupulously avoiding revealing your opinion on all of this inneresting stuff.
<gives him the shifty eye>
<with emphasis>
Politically, Obama reacted perfectly.
I read some more Biden remarks and think he's toast. Too glib (again)...too many careless, controversial statements.
And,.....you, snood....?
OCCOM BILL wrote:I'd say "first" is what puts him in the recycle bin. And he's full of it from the get-go. Al Sharpton is all of the above.
Not clean. I'll NEVER forget the Tawana Brawley insanity and the racial hatred Sharpton and Co tried to stir up.
He knew ...
Meanwhile,
Obama declared "son of God."
My take on Biden's assinine remarks is that he wasn't commenting on anyone's (clean)moral substnce, but on their (clean) physical appearance. To take what he said and ramp it up into a discussion of the moral failings of those previous black candidates does nothing but invite a mess to this thread - an unnecessary, useless mess.
Call it forthrightness and wink at me for not indulging it if you will, but the first thing I thought of when you brought up how "dirty" they were was "I wonder what white politicians she considers clean?" And that's about the same time I knew that I was going to let your baffling persistence about pursuing that be your own little wild goose.
snood wrote:My take on Biden's assinine remarks is that he wasn't commenting on anyone's (clean)moral substnce, but on their (clean) physical appearance.
Considering that "nice-looking" was the next characterisation he used, and that he didnt use any other adjective that referred to moral substance (they were all about externalities), I think thats the obvious interpretation. Anything else seems to be "looking for nails in low water", as we say in Dutch.
If I were Obama, I'd be grinning from ear to ear right now. After all, Biden is spending hours and hours on prime time TV without promoting his own agenda, praising his opponent to the skies instead. It's not every day that your rival starts his campaign like this. Biden couldn't give Obama a nicer present nominationwise.
And since this thread is about Obama, that's all I'm going to say about Biden's gaffe.
This is all so very disconcerting.
Is it OK if I refer to snood as "articulate"? I'd like to. Or what about using the adjectives "clean" or "dirty" in reference to Lash? Can I go either way on that one? I'd like to.
blatham wrote:Is it OK if I refer to snood as "articulate"? I'd like to. Or what about using the adjectives "clean" or "dirty" in reference to Lash? Can I go either way on that one? I'd like to.
Don't you worry about a thaing, Berna. Leash is a clian, nahce-lookin red-neck woamin, aind prahd of iat. Shea'd never miand ye callin her naimes like theat. Da Load bleass yer consiaderate little soul, Berna.
Thomas wrote:blatham wrote:Is it OK if I refer to snood as "articulate"? I'd like to. Or what about using the adjectives "clean" or "dirty" in reference to Lash? Can I go either way on that one? I'd like to.
Don't you worry about a thaing, Berna. Leash is a clian, nahce-lookin red-neck woamin, aind prahd of iat. Shea'd never miand ye callin her naimes like theat. Da Load bleass yer consiaderate little soul, Berna.
Above passage from the Clemens' work, A Teutonic Yankee in King George's Court.
Pat on back for my fellow here
Quote:A freeze-out for Fox?
For a time -- and for all we know, that time may continue -- Dick Cheney's office denied reporters from the New York Times a seat on Air Force Two. Barack Obama doesn't have such a fancy airplane yet, but he's showing that two can still play that game. According to the Washington Post's Mary Ann Akers, Fox News reporters and producers are complaining that Obama has frozen them out in the wake of the network's false report that he attended a jihadist school as a child.
Akers says that CEO Roger Ailes has tried to patch things up with two telephone calls to Obama. Others from the "fair and balanced" team are taking a harder tack. A spokeswoman for the network says that if Obama's people have made a decision to freeze out Fox, they should reconsider in light of the fact that their candidate "is trailing by 20 points in the polls."
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/
snood wrote:My take on Biden's assinine remarks is that he wasn't commenting on anyone's (clean)moral substnce, but on their (clean) physical appearance. To take what he said and ramp it up into a discussion of the moral failings of those previous black candidates does nothing but invite a mess to this thread - an unnecessary, useless mess.
Call it forthrightness and wink at me for not indulging it if you will, but the first thing I thought of when you brought up how "dirty" they were was "I wonder what white politicians she considers clean?" And that's about the same time I knew that I was going to let your baffling persistence about pursuing that be your own little wild goose.
I think I answered that approximately 98% of politicians are "dirty" or corrupt.
It's not a racial issue. It's a corruption issue.
I like the freeze-out thing, blatham! (And I love their little "20 points behind" threat -- he hasn't even officially announced he's running yet!)
blatham wrote:This is all so very disconcerting.
Is it OK if I refer to snood as "articulate"? I'd like to. Or what about using the adjectives "clean" or "dirty" in reference to Lash? Can I go either way on that one? I'd like to.
I think "articulate" is a paternalist remark almost always. If you pine to use it to approve blacks who can speak intelligibly, certainly you should. "Clean" and "dirty" (as I thought they were being used) are moral judgments. I'm sure we'd ALL loved to be judged on those grounds.
You first?
Of course, if he meant physically clean, I'm reminded of the advertisement: "fresh, clean, beautiful...Cover Girl"--denoting a fresh, clean complexion. I can't believe you think Biden was suggesting Obama is the first black Presidential candidate to have had a bath.
All this is very silly; arguing about the word "articulate" to anybody on this planet isn't about PC or anything else. Why is it such a controversy when one cay say ""Reagan was articulate," but it's wrong to say "Obama is articulate?" Talk about making a mountain out of nothing!
sozobe wrote:I like the freeze-out thing, blatham! (And I love their little "20 points behind" threat -- he hasn't even officially announced he's running yet!)
Yeah, it's a good and a laudable move.
Lash wrote:blatham wrote:This is all so very disconcerting.
Is it OK if I refer to snood as "articulate"? I'd like to. Or what about using the adjectives "clean" or "dirty" in reference to Lash? Can I go either way on that one? I'd like to.
I think "articulate" is a paternalist remark almost always. If you pine to use it to approve blacks who can speak intelligibly, certainly you should. "Clean" and "dirty" (as I thought they were being used) are moral judgments. I'm sure we'd ALL loved to be judged on those grounds.
You first?
Of course, if he meant physically clean, I'm reminded of the advertisement: "fresh, clean, beautiful...Cover Girl"--denoting a fresh, clean complexion. I can't believe you think Biden was suggesting Obama is the first black Presidential candidate to have had a bath.
I understand what you are getting at here and I don't much disagree. Biden phucked up and that's the truth. I don't think it is a terribly disgraceful phuck up but it points to a continuing racial division in your country (we have one too).
What of the opposite? Is there any problem with describing a person running for public office as being "inarticulate" if that is the case? How well a person speaks/writes is a pretty good indicator of what's happening in their noggins, which is something we justifiably care about in selecting our political leaders (and others whom we'll depend on to do important tasks). There isn't necessarily a racial component evident in Biden's statement but because of the tenor of the times and because of specific aspects of how blacks were once (not long ago) held to be intellectually inferior, it's not something one can say without a set of social consequences following.
As to clean/dirty, I have no idea about you. Well, maybe some. But I suspect that Biden meant as regards reputation. A bright young fellow who lived with me for a couple of years is now working at the highest levels in the Canadian political scene. It was his lifelong aspiration and in order to guarantee that there wouldn't be unnecessary impediments to achieving that goal, he refused all invitations to smoke marijuana even while all about him were partaking. He wanted to be "clean". But you wouldn't believe the things he got up to in the bedroom!
snood wrote:This is from an article from the NY Times about the ambivalence of some blacks about Obama.
You beat me! I was just going to post a link to
the article.
In your experience, Snood, how common is the "not black enough" attitude among blacks? Would you say it's common enough to swing the nomination, or even the election?
It's in our social nature, I think, snood. Christians who aren't quite Christian enough, conservatives who aren't conservative enough, revolutionaries who aren't serious enough about the revolution, etc.
Human groups have to, as a functional matter, adopt some structures which solidify consensus. Diversity stands in opposition but we are driven (thank goodness) in that direction as well.
So I think this sort of conflict is absolutely unavoidable. We just have to keep slogging away.
Lots of people here were on my Gallaudet thread, where I discussed the "not Deaf enough" concept. It is, unfortunately, really common amongst oppressed minority groups I think. Counterintuitive but common (and as a swing of the pendulum I think that overall it might be healthy -- that is, it's a step towards empowerment and self-regard, just that the stage itself is unfortunate.)
I forget if it was posted here that Al Sharpton has been "interviewing" Democratic candidates -- I don't remember how it went exactly, can find it, but he clearly appreciated Hillary and expressed some reservations about Obama. While this is completely paraphrasing, the attitude towards Obama was "I'm open-minded, but he needs to convince me."
I think some of this is just not wanting to be taken for granted, which has been the bane of the black electorate for a long time. "You're black, you'll vote Democratic, so I'm going to spend my time trying to convince those white soccer moms over there..." Or, showing up to get votes every 4 years but not the rest of the time. I think that's valid. A certain frustration with the fact that all of these pundits are talking about how Obama will get the black vote yadda yadda and then black people are crossing their arms and saying, "Oh, will we...?"
So while that makes a certain amount of sense to me, I'm optimistic that Obama will be able to show his civil rights cred (which he HAS) and win over a good proportion of that group.
We'll see...
Snood, did I tell you I got Obama's books? I'm making my way through them kind of piecemeal, haven't sat down and read them cover to cover yet, but I'm so impressed. Especially, "Audacity of Hope" is way more specific than I expected -- proposals, strong beliefs -- which I like in two ways. One is that I like the proposals!! (Some stuff about making it easier for working parents that is absolutely stellar.) Another is that it defies a label he's gotten as being all about the comforting platitudes -- that book has meat to it. It's not like I wasn't already a fan (ahem) but reading these books is kicking everything up another notch.
