cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 26 Jan, 2007 02:00 pm
okie, You're talking about a world far in the past when you talk about the imprisonment of Japanese Americans during WWII. That was a mistake that subsequent presidents apologized for, and most Japanese Americans have forgiven and forgotten as as failure of past administrations. "We" are more concerned about the treatment of Arab Americans today.

As for Bush, he has continued to lie about the illegal wiretaps and not torturing prisoners at Gitmo and abu Garaib. He has also restricted sharing critical information with congress concerning intelligence on WMDs, and currently with the agreements between the Iraqi government and ours. Bush also asks for suggestions, but ignores almost everybody when provided with same. The Hamilton-Baker report recommends diplomacy with Iran and Syria, but Bush refuses to do so. The American People by a majority of 75 percent wants American troops redeployed out of Iraq, but Bush ignores this. The majority of Iraqis want US troops out of their country, but Bush ignores them too!

His surge has already accomplished greater violence in Iraq.

When we have an ignoramous in the white house, we must suffer two more years of this dangerous tyrant. After all, the American People voted him in for the second term.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Fri 26 Jan, 2007 03:51 pm
Obama Facebook group rockets toward one-million link
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Sat 27 Jan, 2007 07:57 am
This is an excerpt from an editorial by Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune...


"A lie can travel halfway around the world," Mark Twain is said to have exclaimed, "while the truth is putting on its shoes." What an optimist he was. In this age of the Internet, lies go around the globe many times before the truth can even find its shoes.

Just ask Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama. Just as Illinois' rising superstar senator announced his White House bid, an anti-Obama smear campaign was percolating in cyberspace and popping up in countless e-mail boxes, including mine.

…Obama was not secretly educated in a radical Islamic school when he was growing up in Indonesia. That was confirmed Monday by CNN senior international correspondent John Vause, reporting from Jakarta. With pictures and interviews that include one of young "Barry" (his childhood nickname) Obama's classmates, Vause found that the Besuki School is not and never was a madrassa. It is a secular public school attended mostly by Muslims.

That's not surprising, since Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim country. Yet, about a fourth of the school's enrollment was non-Muslim, like young Barry, as it is now. Children and teachers wear conventional Western dress, not Eastern religious garb, and theology is found only in a weekly class on comparative religions.

Insight also said Obama's political rivals "are seeking to prove" that the school promoted Wahhabism, an austere form of Islam that fuels many Islamic terrorists. But Vause observed on CNN that "I've been to those madrassas in Pakistan ... this school is nothing like that."

…Yet, no matter how many facts you dig up, truth has a tough time standing up to a juicy rumor. By the time CNN debunked the unfounded allegations, they had been repeated on Fox News, The New York Post, the Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and other outlets. To hear some of the chatter, you would have thought that Clinton's campaign had all but outed Obama as an Al Qaeda agent.

Obama's just beginning to learn. Worse is yet to come. If one can be condemned by faint praise, Obama should feel praised so far by faint condemnation. If empty rumors are the worst that his enemies can come up with in their desperate attempts to chip away at his amazingly pristine image, he's doing remarkably well. But, fasten your seat belt, Senator. It's going to be a bumpy ride, to paraphrase Bette Davis in "All About Eve."

And with this much mudslinging a year before the first primary and caucus votes are cast, this presidential contest will be a big test not only for the candidates, but also for the rest of us.

There's a lot of speculation going on about whether we Americans are ready to elect a black or a female president. The real question is whether we are ready to be fair to all candidates, despite the spin doctors, mudslingers and rumormongers who betray our hopes and play on our fears.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0701240018jan24,1,3930926.column?coll=chi-news-col
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 29 Jan, 2007 08:07 am
snood, quoting the Chicago Tribune, wrote:
If one can be condemned by faint praise, Obama should feel praised so far by faint condemnation. If empty rumors are the worst that his enemies can come up with in their desperate attempts to chip away at his amazingly pristine image, he's doing remarkably well.

This neatly sums up my impressions of this particular smearing attempt. Of course, I also agree with the sentence that follows it.

Quote:
But, fasten your seat belt, Senator. It's going to be a bumpy ride, to paraphrase Bette Davis in "All About Eve."

Still, my dominant impression is that these smearing attemts are too feckless to do real harm. I was cauciously optimistic about Obama before they happened; I'm more optimistic now that they did.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:00 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie, You're talking about a world far in the past when you talk about the imprisonment of Japanese Americans during WWII. That was a mistake that subsequent presidents apologized for, and most Japanese Americans have forgiven and forgotten as as failure of past administrations. "We" are more concerned about the treatment of Arab Americans today.

As for Bush, he has continued to lie about the illegal wiretaps and not torturing prisoners at Gitmo and abu Garaib. He has also restricted sharing critical information with congress concerning intelligence on WMDs, and currently with the agreements between the Iraqi government and ours. Bush also asks for suggestions, but ignores almost everybody when provided with same. The Hamilton-Baker report recommends diplomacy with Iran and Syria, but Bush refuses to do so. The American People by a majority of 75 percent wants American troops redeployed out of Iraq, but Bush ignores this. The majority of Iraqis want US troops out of their country, but Bush ignores them too!

His surge has already accomplished greater violence in Iraq.

When we have an ignoramous in the white house, we must suffer two more years of this dangerous tyrant. After all, the American People voted him in for the second term.


cicerone, I am merely applying a bit of historical context to issues that can be evaluated with a much more balanced and realistic perspective when you do so. The point is that FDR is considered a Democrat icon, a hero, an idol, whatever, to this day, and okie sitting out here monitoring liberal media plainly sees a double standard. The truth is it all depends on who is in the Whitehouse, as to how the media treats them on any and all issues. There is a stark contrast to say the least. As far as the Arabs, I do not see any comparable treatment, or wholesale unfair treatment here in this country at all, and in fact I think just the opposite is occurring. We can't pick on certain stereotypes in an airport for example, because we might be accused of "profiling."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 08:40 am
Playbooks for the White House - President Bush was unqualified to run the country in 2000, just as Obama is now is the title of a comment in today's Chicago Tribune.

I must admit, I've never really got what it exactly makes to get "qualified as presidential candidate" ... but this from above seems quite logically:


Quote:
In short, my fellow liberals, we cannot have it both ways. If George W. Bush was unqualified to be our president, Barack Obama is even more so. One day, I hope, the quiet young man who sat next to me in class will sit in the Oval Office. But that day is still a few years off, and none of us should be shy about saying so. Like our presidents, we need to learn from experience.


But since I neither can vote nor don't mind about this ... he would get my vote :wink:
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 08:49 am
Yeah, I personally prefer that a candidate have more experience, but the whole fresh start/ uncorrupted thing seems to be in Obama's favor right now.

So while I mostly agree there, I'd say a big difference is intellectual curiosity. I believe that Obama would become effective far more quickly than Bush. As in, Obama would be elected early November 2008, and spend the months between then and inauguration day preparing feverishly, and then gather a blue chip group of advisors around him, and then pick their brains on a regular basis as part of getting and staying on top of things himself.

Bush, on the other hand, got into office and then put up the walls and went about being the same clueless bumbler he's always been. :-?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 11:24 am
okie, You cannot compare or show contrast between FDR and Bush concerning the treatment by media. Today's world is the internet that provides instantaneous information around the world in seconds. There is no filtering of truth or fiction, and depending on ones bias will believe or challenge anything that seems to be news.

Most are too lazy to learn the truth, and this misinformation is prevalent in today's world.

You can't compare WWII with the war in Iraq. Bush started the war in Iraq based on misinformation about WMDs. Where's the comparison to WWII? The policy of war has changed dramatically since WWII; most do not accept collateral damage today compared to WWII. Our bombing campaigns on Tokyo and Berlin is not acceptable today by the world community and the US.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 06:27 pm
Today's email from the Obama. Finally, someone shows congress how to do their jobs, rather than continue with these hollow resolutions currently being discussed.

Quote:
Dear Friend,

Today, we sadly find ourselves at the very point in Iraq I feared most when I opposed giving the President the open-ended authority to wage this war in 2002 - an occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences in the midst of a country torn by civil war.

We have waited and we have been patient. We have given chance after chance for a resolution that has not come, and, more importantly, watched with horror and grief the tragic loss of thousands of brave young Americans.

The time for waiting in Iraq is over. The days of our open-ended commitment must come to a close. And the need to bring this war to an end is here.

That is why today, I'm introducing the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007. This plan would not only place a cap on the number of troops in Iraq and stop the escalation, it would begin a phased redeployment of U.S. forces with the goal of removing of all U.S. combat forces from Iraq by March 31st, 2008 - consistent with the recommendations of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group that the President ignored.

The redeployment of troops to the United States , Afghanistan , and elsewhere in the region would begin no later than May 1st of this year, toward the end of the timeframe I first proposed in a speech more than two months ago. In a civil war where no military solution exists, this redeployment remains our best leverage to pressure the Iraqi government to achieve the political settlement between its warring factions that can slow the bloodshed and promote stability.

The U.S. military has performed valiantly and brilliantly in Iraq . Our troops have done all we have asked them to do and more. But no amount of American soldiers can solve the political differences at the heart of somebody else's civil war, nor settle the grievances in the hearts of the combatants.

When it comes to the war in Iraq, the time for promises and assurances, for waiting and patience, is over. Too many lives have been lost and too many billions have been spent for us to trust the President on another tried and failed policy opposed by generals and experts, Democrats and Republicans, Americans and even the Iraqis themselves.

It is time to change our policy.

It is time to give Iraqis their country back.

And it is time to refocus America 's efforts on the challenges we face at home and the wider struggle against terror yet to be won.

Sincerely,

U.S. Senator Barack Obama
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 06:44 pm
Butrflynet,
From what you posted...

Quote:
That is why today, I'm introducing the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007. This plan would not only place a cap on the number of troops in Iraq and stop the escalation, it would begin a phased redeployment of U.S. forces with the goal of removing of all U.S. combat forces from Iraq by March 31st, 2008 - consistent with the recommendations of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group that the President ignored


Now,this sounds all well and good,but apparently Obama hasnt read the Constitution.
The President is the Commander in Chief,and he and he alone can decide when and where US troops are used and how.

Congress does not now,nor have they ever,had the authority to do so.
The most they can do is refuse to fund the troops.
(I dont think that lightly,because the dems know they would get crucified if they did).

Now,while I am slightly interested in Obama's campaign,lets not allow your fervor for him to cloud what the Constitution says.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 06:56 pm
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 07:03 pm
From Obama's government website:

Press release and fact sheet on the bill being introduced today.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 07:17 pm
BF, MM is right. That story is the only useful for looking good in print... and was no doubt designed with that in mind. It is a waste of time.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 07:29 pm
Not according to reports on the investigation conducted today in the War Powers Committee.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20070130-1031-congress-warpowers.html


Senate Republican challenges Bush on war powers

By Laurie Kellman
ASSOCIATED PRESS

10:31 a.m. January 30, 2007

WASHINGTON - A Senate Republican on Tuesday directly challenged President Bush's declaration that "I am the decision-maker" on issues of war.
"I would suggest respectfully to the president that he is not the sole decider," Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said during a hearing on Congress' war powers amid an increasingly harsh debate over Iraq war policy. "The decider is a shared and joint responsibility," Specter said.

<snip>

"The Constitution makes Congress a coequal branch of government. It's time we start acting like it," said Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wis., who presided over a hearing Tuesday on Congress' war powers. He also is pushing legislation to end the war by eventually prohibiting funding for the deployment of troops to Iraq.

<snip>

Congress used its war powers to cut off or put conditions on funding for the Vietnam war and conflicts in Cambodia, Somalia and Bosnia.

Under the Constitution, lawmakers have the ability to declare war and fund military operations, while the president has control of military forces.

But presidents also can veto legislation and Bush likely has enough support in Congress on Iraq to withstand any veto override attempts.

<snip>

"In an ongoing operation, you've got to defer to the commander in chief," said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee. But the veteran senator and former Navy secretary said he understands the debate over Congress' ability to check the executive branch.


<snip>

In recent decades, presidents have routinely bypassed Congress when deploying troops to fight. Not since World War II has Congress issued an official declaration of war, despite lengthy wars fought in Vietnam and Korea.

Congress does not have to approve military maneuvers.

John Yoo, who as a Justice Department lawyer helped write the 2002 resolution authorizing the Iraq invasion, called that document a political one designed only to bring Democrats on board and spread accountability for the conflict.

The resolution passed by a 296-133 vote in the then-GOP-run House and 77-23 in the Democratic-led Senate, but it was not considered a declaration of war.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 07:51 pm
Butrflynet,
Your own link says the same thing...

Quote:
Congress used its war powers to cut off or put conditions on funding for the Vietnam war and conflicts in Cambodia, Somalia and Bosnia.

Under the Constitution, lawmakers have the ability to declare war and fund military operations, while the president has control of military forces.


Notice that line...THE PRESIDENT HAS CONTROL OF MILITARY FORCES

Also,the Constitution is quite clear.
Congress controls the purse strings,but ONLY the President can decide when and where the military is used.

Senator Specter and Feingold notwithstanding,the congress has absolutely no say in the decision,they can only fund or not fund the effort.
That is the sum total of the control they have.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 30 Jan, 2007 07:57 pm
I've started a new topic for discussion of the war powers. Let's move that part of the chat there.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=90789&highlight=
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 31 Jan, 2007 06:36 pm
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
Thomas, please tell me you didn't say that. Bernie Sanders especially.

I'm sorry, Okie, but I did say that, and I stand by it. I may be a libertarian, but I'm easily corrupted by personalities. In particular, Feingold and Sanders are two non-libertarians who succeeded at corrupting me.

Thomas would vote for a self-described socialist?

Wow, now Ive seen it all! Smile

Wouldnt that be a great world, in which Saunders could win the White House.. President Bernia Sanders, sounds good to me Smile
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 31 Jan, 2007 06:55 pm
Uh-oh... f*ck-up alert

Quote:
BIDENISM OF THE DAY:

On Barack Obama:

    "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
Clean?

That's from TNR's The Plank.

The commenters had a field day with Joe Biden's telling glitch into his racist "id":

Quote:
  • "Articulate" and "clean" are code for "not too black."

  • This may be it for Biden. I love the guy. But if Trent Lott said something like this, he'd be kicked out of the Republican leadership again. [..]

    However, I think there is a grain of truth here. Biden presumably means Obama ain't that black (to paraphrase Colin Powell's own paraphrasing of others about him). White Americans are much more comfortable with black politicians who don't "sound" black, for better or worse.

    On second thought, I think I'm going to go ahead and just totally retract that statement.

    "...articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy..."

    "Articulate" is white code for "not that black." But the rest of it - clean, nice-looking - is impossible to rationalize. This was Biden's id speaking. I don't see any way out of this for him.

  • welcome to unconscious racism..
    so sue me, someone had to say it.

  • Biden's only saying what most white lefties think. The entire Obama candidacy is an exercise in liberal white guilt wish fulfillment. [..]

  • C'mon people! It's obvious that Biden meant to say "clean-shaven."

    After all, look at the two other men most often mentioned in the same breath as Obama: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

    What do Jackson and Sharpton have in common? Mustaches! And are either held in high regard? Hell no! Coincidence? I thnk not!

    Everyone knows how much white America hates black men with facial hair (except for Isaac Hayes, of course).

    When will we, as a nation, have to courage to confront this follicle-based discrimiantion head on?

  • In all fairness to Biden, however, Obama is one fine, upstanding Negro. Isn't that neat!

  • "rorschach". i looked up this spelling yesterday because it will be used a lot in next two years. that quote is nasty. so maybe it will be the ones that adore obama for the wrong reasons who will sink him. who wants to vote for a black candidate who is fawned over with those adjectives. i can see now where the destructive path lies..
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 31 Jan, 2007 06:59 pm
In a later Plank post, Michael Crowley opines:

Quote:
Joe Biden is, naturally, saying he only meant that Barack Obama is a fresh new face. Unfortunately the problem he faces is that the nature of his gaffe--for those who assume the worst--can't be explained away. It's a less-extreme version of George Allen's macaca crack: Allen's defenders said it was ludicrous to consider "macaca" a slur and not, say, a meaningless goofy nickmame, because clearly no politician would slur someone in public even if he was thinking such vile thoughts. But the charge in that case, as in Biden's, is that it was the subconscious talking in some unintentionally revealing way. And no amount of spin or contrition can undo that.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Wed 31 Jan, 2007 07:01 pm
Biden is boisterous anyway...but now that he's entered the race he's a gung ho A hole.
0 Replies
 
 

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