Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 07:48 am
okie wrote:
The guy gave a speech. Lets elect him. Surprise, the guy actually has stances on things that we may need to look into, in other words he is an ultra lib.

In this particular case though, as Sozobe observed, more Republicans than Democrats voted on Obama's side.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 08:17 am
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
The guy gave a speech. Lets elect him. Surprise, the guy actually has stances on things that we may need to look into, in other words he is an ultra lib.

In this particular case though, as Sozobe observed, more Republicans than Democrats voted on Obama's side.


So, is that good for Obama? Doesn't seem like something the very model of democract should be doing right now, siding with Rep's that is.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 08:26 am
McGentrix wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
The guy gave a speech. Lets elect him. Surprise, the guy actually has stances on things that we may need to look into, in other words he is an ultra lib.

In this particular case though, as Sozobe observed, more Republicans than Democrats voted on Obama's side.


So, is that good for Obama?

I don't know, and this was not my point. My point was to deflate your cliché about Obama, the "ultra-lib".
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 08:29 am
Unless you're an honest man who votes his conscience... and more over doesn't mind appealing to independent thinkers who're neither Democrat nor Republican. I'm starting to think, for the first time in my adult life I'll have an opportunity to choose between two very appealing candidates. Pretty exciting, really. Other than Ross Perot, I'm having trouble remembering another one, let alone two.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:23 am
sozobe wrote:
I have a feeling there's something more to it -- if the relative is the most qualified person, why exclude him or her, maybe -- but I don't know, will look into it.

Unless I'm completely off track, there certainly does seem to be "something more to it", on second sight - but in a wholly different way.

This is what I found when further discussing/researching the matter with Mysteryman and Thomas on the Democrats' gloating thread. Bear with me, it's interesting.

nimh wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thanks for the correction, nimh!

No problem, but there might be more to come. This discussion might take an interesting turn. [..]

Back to the actual amendment [..], the more I look into it, the more confusing it becomes. [..]

The USA Today article of Jan. 17 that Mysteryman posted [on the Democrats gloating thread] has a clear take on what happened:

Quote:
A proposal by Sen. David Vitter, R-La., that would ban senators' spouses from lobbying the chamber has [..] failed to clear a legislative hurdle Wednesday when it did not get the 65 votes needed to advance it.


The Hill article of Jan. 17 that McGentrix posted [here] ("Obama's first blunder") has an equally clear - but completely opposite take:

Quote:
Presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama made his first misstep a few days ago when he joined only a handful of Democrats in opposing a Senate reform banning the increasingly widespread practice of legislators hiring their family members on their campaign or PAC payrolls. [..] Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who opposes wives cashing in on their husbands' positions, voted righteously in favor of the reform [..]

Obama's inexplicable pro-nepotism vote may have been cast in sympathy with Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. [..] But whatever the reason for his vote, Obama has screwed up. [..]

The Senate was right to ban the practice and the House should follow suit.


So what up? Did the Vitter amendment about banning legislators from hiring their family members on their campaign or PAC payrolls pass, or fail to be advanced?

I am no expert on these things, but I think the USA Today article and Mysteryman are actually right - and the Hill article that McGentrix posted has it ass upside down. In what would be quite a spectacular way.

The only vote on a Vitter amendment to ban the practice is the one you linked in, Thomas: the Motion to Table Vitter Amdt. No. 6. 54 Senators voted to table it, 41 voted "Nay".

Most Democrats voted to table it, most Republicans voted "nay" - this GovTrack page has a lovely little insightful map (looks like a very useful site).

The question is then just what it actually means to "table" an amendment. A clue is in the voting roll. Those who voted "yea" included not just Hillary, but also Reid and Feinstein, mentioned in the USA Today article as likely to oppose the amendment. Obama, but also Vitter himself, however, voted "Nay".

The GovTrack website provides what seems the crucial bit of information here (Senate Roll Call Vote #3):

Quote:
The Motion to Table is used to kill a legislative matter. An Aye vote in favor of the motion is a vote against the bill or amendment.


Wowza.

So what that means, if I understand correctly - unless there has by now been a new vote that neither the US Senate website nor GovTrack or that of the Library of Congress have posted info on yet - is:

  • The Hill article is wrong: the Senate did not in fact ban the practice of Senators employing spouses and relatives as lobbyists or campaigners.

  • USA Today is right: instead, the amendment has for now failed to advance.

  • Mysteryman is right: most of the Democrats have voted to kill the Vitter bill, for now. Most of the Republicans voted to proceed with the amendment.

    (Which is where one sceptically wonders why they suddenly want to now, when throughout the time they were in power, they refused to propose such a thing).

  • Here it gets interesting: if I understand this correctly, the whole premise of the anti-Obama Hill article then is one big cock-up. After all, Obama then actually voted in favour of the amendment by voting against "tabling" it - whereas Hillary voted to kick it in the long grass by voting for "tabling" it.
Here's a clue: the Hill article was written by Dick Morris. Former Clinton operative, if memory serves me well.


Thomas followed up:

Thomas wrote:
nimh wrote:
The Hill article of Jan. 17 that McGentrix posted in the Obama thread ("Obama's first blunder") has an equally clear - but completely opposite take:

I have an idea where this comes from. According to Webster (linking seems no longer possible) "to table" as a transitive verb means "to put on the agenda in British English and "to remove from the agenda" in American English. The exact opposite.

nimh wrote:
So what that means, if I understand correctly - unless there has by now been a new vote that neither the US Senate website nor GovTrack or that of the Library of Congress have posted info on yet - is:

  • The Hill article is wrong: the Senate did not in fact ban the practice of Senators employing spouses and relatives as lobbyists or campaigners.

  • USA Today is right: instead, the amendment has for now failed to advance.

  • Mysteryman is right: most of the Democrats have voted to kill the Vitter bill, for now. Most of the Republicans voted to proceed with the amendment.

Having re-checked, I think you're right.

nimh wrote:
  • Here it gets interesting: if I understand this correctly, the whole premise of the anti-Obama Hill article then is one big cock-up. After all, Obama then actually voted in favour of the amendment by voting against "tabling" it - whereas Hillary voted to kick it in the long grass by voting for "tabling" it.
Here's a clue: the Hill article was written by Dick Morris. Former Clinton operative, if memory serves me well.

You're right, but Wikipedia says they had a falling out [..].

Wikipedia wrote:
More recently, Morris has emerged as a harsh critic of the Clintons and has written several books that criticize them, including Rewriting History, a rebuttal to Senator Hillary Clinton's Living History. Morris has stated he will leave the United States if Hillary Clinton were to be elected president in 2008.

Doesn't seem like a Hillary Clinton shill to me. But he may well have fun sowing a little discord among Democrats.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:29 am
My head is spinning. (Thanks very much for the research though, maybe if I read it about 15 more times I'll get it.)

Another thing I said (rather than the one you quoted) might be more pertinent:

sozobe wrote:
I sense a whole lot of over-my-head political machinations. For example, Obama was a driving force behind several of the specific ethics reforms in that bill -- did he think that taking out that one made it more likely that the bill as a whole would pass, making sure other, more important aspects were actually implemented? (As McGentrix's article indicates, nepotism is not currently a major problem.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:41 am
quoting herself, sozobe wrote:
I sense a whole lot of over-my-head political machinations. For example, Obama was a driving force behind several of the specific ethics reforms in that bill -- did he think that taking out that one made it more likely that the bill as a whole would pass, making sure other, more important aspects were actually implemented? (As McGentrix's article indicates, nepotism is not currently a major problem.)

No. That's the thing nimh was trying to explain: Obama actually didn't vote against the amendement. He voted against tabling it, meaning he actually supported the amendment. Mr. Morris either misunderstood, or lied about, what a motion to table a bill really is.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:44 am
Right, I just now got that. The main thing was over-my-head political machinations (the rest was context, a for-example), though the central concept is that what was voted on was tabling the amendment or not (killing it), rather than voting yea or nay on the amendment itself.

Whew! Convoluted.

And evil article by Morris. Evil or Very Mad Who certainly is known for being evil.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:46 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Unless you're an honest man who votes his conscience... and more over doesn't mind appealing to independent thinkers who're neither Democrat nor Republican. I'm starting to think, for the first time in my adult life I'll have an opportunity to choose between two very appealing candidates. Pretty exciting, really. Other than Ross Perot, I'm having trouble remembering another one, let alone two.


Bill...who are the two?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:47 am
sozobe wrote:
My head is spinning.

Well, this is basically the bottom line as far as this thread is concerned - I'll break up the paragraph a bit:

    Here it gets interesting: if I understand this correctly, the whole premise of the anti-Obama [i]Hill [/i]article [that Obama cast a "pro-nepotism" vote against ethics reform] is one big cock-up. After all, Obama then actually voted in [i]favour [/i]of the amendment [to ban Senators from employing spouses and relatives as lobbyists], by voting against "tabling" it. Whereas Hillary voted to kick [the proposal] in the long grass by voting [i]for [/i]"tabling" it.
Why, then, this outright smear of Obama, which is what the Hill article that McGentrix posted comes down to if we are right?

Here's a clue: the Hill article was written by Dick Morris. Thomas: "he may well have fun sowing a little discord among Democrats."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:48 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Unless you're an honest man who votes his conscience... and more over doesn't mind appealing to independent thinkers who're neither Democrat nor Republican. I'm starting to think, for the first time in my adult life I'll have an opportunity to choose between two very appealing candidates. Pretty exciting, really. Other than Ross Perot, I'm having trouble remembering another one, let alone two.


Bill...who are the two?
Obama and McCain... or maybe Giuliani.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 09:53 am
I think Bill is leaning towards one of the Hilarys. He just doesn't know if he wants to vote for the left (o) or the right (o).
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 12:55 pm
Quote:
January 18, 2007
Barack Obama: American Idol
By Cal Thomas


That Sen. Barack Hussein Obama Jr. chose the day of "American Idol's" season premiere to launch his presidential exploratory committee is nicely symbolic.

Part of the attraction and seductiveness of Sen. Obama - perhaps the main attraction - is that he is mostly a blank slate on which others can write what they choose. Now that he's announced formation of an exploratory committee to help him decide whether he should run for president (is there any doubt?), the moving fingers will begin writing soon enough.

Much of what Obama says resonates with many people, including me. In his exploratory committee announcement, which he recorded on video and put on his Website (barackobama.com/video), he notes, "how hungry we all are for a different kind of politics." There can be no question about that. He also says, "our leaders in Washington seem incapable of working together in a practical, common sense way. Politics has become so bitter and partisan, so gummed up by money and influence, that we can't tackle the big problems that demand solutions." Right again.

Then he says, "We have to change our politics, and come together around our common interests and concerns as Americans."

Here is where things could get sticky. Obama is a liberal Democrat. He favors abortion rights, gun control and tax breaks for the middle class (though, according to data from the Internal Revenue Service, the top 1 percent of income earners pay nearly 35 percent of the income tax burden). On which of these contentious issues might he compromise in order to diminish the bitterness and partisanship in politics? Would the left be bitter and partisan were he to pursue consensus on these issues?

It could be argued that much of the bitterness in politics has been caused by liberal elitists who have used the courts to ram social change down our throats without regard to the democratic process. I see Obama as being a part of this ideological strain. Does he believe activist judges should interpret the Constitution through a left-wing prism and the people should have no say in such matters? Most liberals believe so.

If this were a contest about looks and style, Obama might have an edge. If it were a competition about which candidate is the best orator, he'd win. But it is neither. Regardless of party, a president must have the credentials and especially the worldview to be a credible leader. He (or she) must also be respected, even feared, by those who hate and want to destroy America. Whether a president wins personality and popularity contests is irrelevant. It only matters that a president pursues American interests first.

Does Obama have such qualities and should a political neophyte, a former state senator from Illinois, with just two years of experience in the U.S. Senate, be hired for the world's most important job? Should voters exert blind faith that he is up to the challenge?

What is Obama's view about the threat from terrorists from without and within our country? He says the United States should never have gone to war in Iraq, that invading the country was a bad strategic blunder, but that having gone, we must make sure that Iraq is stable. Does he consider a stable Iraq with an elected and functioning government important enough to finish the job?

If not, would he accept responsibility for what would likely follow a withdrawal of U.S. troops, a withdrawal he proposed in November, such as a terror state that might launch attacks against its neighbors and recruit suicide bombers for missions inside the United States?

"Only through this phased redeployment can we send a clear message to the Iraqi factions that the U.S. is not going to hold together this country indefinitely - that it will be up to them to form a viable government that can effectively run and secure Iraq," Obama said. "It is time to give Iraqis their country back, and it is time to refocus America's efforts on the wider struggle yet to be won."

But what if, for whatever reason, Iraqis are not yet ready to bear full responsibility for their country and for the insurgency that seeks to permanently occupy it? Would he accept responsibility for such a gigantic policy failure? When you're president, you don't get to pass the buck.

These are the questions that need answering. We have a right to know what manner of individual aspires to the Oval Office, before we give him, or her, the honor, privilege and responsibility of the office.

In short, it's time to start writing on that blank slate and to seriously contemplate what's written there.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 01:41 pm
Quote:
Here's a clue: the Hill article was written by Dick Morris. Thomas: "he may well have fun sowing a little discord among Democrats."

Morris has, for some time now, been a regular guest pundit on Fox.

Quote:
Off the Mark

By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 18, 2007; 9:58 AM

"Obama's First Blunder," the headline said.

It turned out instead to be Dick Morris's first blunder of the 2008 campaign.

The political strategist turned Fox News commentator had a column in The Hill yesterday, accusing Barack Obama of an "inexplicable pro-nepotism vote."

The Illinois Democrat's offense? "He joined only a handful of Democrats in opposing a Senate reform banning the increasingly widespread practice of legislators hiring their family members on their campaign or PAC payrolls," Morris wrote. And: "The public will not take kindly to a senator who pledged to clean up the political process" voting in this fashion.

"Why did he vote against it?" Morris added on "Hannity & Colmes." "Because Jesse Jackson's son has his wife on his House payroll, and he didn't want to get him mad at him."

A pretty good issue, if true. But Obama voted for the amendment in question. Morris was flat-out wrong.

He's right about the amendment. Putting relatives on campaign payrolls reeks of impropriety. But Morris is not much of a vote-counter. (Obama's office says he blamed the mistake on a researcher.)

Morris, who worked for Bill Clinton, praised Hillary for voting for the amendment (which means no campaign position for Bill, though I suspect he'll offer plenty of free advice).

Says Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor: "Dick obviously took a ready-fire-aim approach when he wrote this column. Hopefully next time he'll check his facts before criticizing a politician for a position he didn't take."

Morris does the right thing this morning by posting a mea culpa: "I want to retract the allegations in my column yesterday that criticized Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for voting against a bill to prohibit campaign committees and PACs from paying spouses and relatives. In fact, he voted against tabling the bill.

"I sincerely apologize to the senator for my mistaken reading of the record and want to commend him for his correct vote on the issue, unlike the majority of his fellow Democrats, including likely presidential candidates Sens. Joseph Biden Jr. (D-Del.), Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) and Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.)."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2007/01/18/BL2007011800327.html
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 01:49 pm
Well, there ya go.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 01:50 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Here's a clue: the Hill article was written by Dick Morris. Thomas: "he may well have fun sowing a little discord among Democrats."

Morris has, for some time now, been a regular guest pundit on Fox.

Quote:
Off the Mark

By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 18, 2007; 9:58 AM

"Obama's First Blunder," the headline said.

It turned out instead to be Dick Morris's first blunder of the 2008 campaign.

The political strategist turned Fox News commentator had a column in The Hill yesterday, accusing Barack Obama of an "inexplicable pro-nepotism vote."

The Illinois Democrat's offense? "He joined only a handful of Democrats in opposing a Senate reform banning the increasingly widespread practice of legislators hiring their family members on their campaign or PAC payrolls," Morris wrote. And: "The public will not take kindly to a senator who pledged to clean up the political process" voting in this fashion.

"Why did he vote against it?" Morris added on "Hannity & Colmes." "Because Jesse Jackson's son has his wife on his House payroll, and he didn't want to get him mad at him."

A pretty good issue, if true. But Obama voted for the amendment in question. Morris was flat-out wrong.

He's right about the amendment. Putting relatives on campaign payrolls reeks of impropriety. But Morris is not much of a vote-counter. (Obama's office says he blamed the mistake on a researcher.)

Morris, who worked for Bill Clinton, praised Hillary for voting for the amendment (which means no campaign position for Bill, though I suspect he'll offer plenty of free advice).

Says Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor: "Dick obviously took a ready-fire-aim approach when he wrote this column. Hopefully next time he'll check his facts before criticizing a politician for a position he didn't take."

Morris does the right thing this morning by posting a mea culpa: "I want to retract the allegations in my column yesterday that criticized Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for voting against a bill to prohibit campaign committees and PACs from paying spouses and relatives. In fact, he voted against tabling the bill.

"I sincerely apologize to the senator for my mistaken reading of the record and want to commend him for his correct vote on the issue, unlike the majority of his fellow Democrats, including likely presidential candidates Sens. Joseph Biden Jr. (D-Del.), Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) and Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.)."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2007/01/18/BL2007011800327.html


In the mea culpa, is Morris saying that Hillary Clinton did or did not vote for the amendment...and in fact, did Hillary Clinton vote for it or against it???

Very confusing. He seems to be contradicting what he said earlier by what he said in the mea culpa.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 02:39 pm
http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/070117/lester.jpg
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 02:53 pm
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/070117/bennett.jpg
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 02:59 pm
http://www.cagle.com/news/ObamaObama/images/summers.jpg

Laughing
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jan, 2007 03:18 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
In the mea culpa, is Morris saying that Hillary Clinton did or did not vote for the amendment...and in fact, did Hillary Clinton vote for it or against it???

Hillary voted for "tabling" the amendment, which comes down to voting against the amendment.

("Tabling" it apparently means kicking it in the long grass, suspending debate about it - with perhaps behind-the-scenes negotiations leading to it resurfacing in revised form later again - or not).
0 Replies
 
 

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