Obama '08?

@okie,

Quote:

So I think everyone should just get on with the game.

Quote:

Why I fail to answer some posts could be my ignore list, currently includes: cicerone imposter (as of 09/11/2009), dyslexia (as of 09/15/2009), Debra Law (as of 09/16/2009), Walter Hinteler & Setanta (as of 09/23/2009).

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

Quote:
So I think everyone should just get on with the game.

Quote:
Why I fail to answer some posts could be my ignore list, currently includes: cicerone imposter (as of 09/11/2009), dyslexia (as of 09/15/2009), Debra Law (as of 09/16/2009), Walter Hinteler & Setanta (as of 09/23/2009).

if he/she/it wasn't such a douchebag, the irony would be sublime

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@djjd62,

Better watch it, djjd62, you'll be Ignored by okie. ROFLMAO "It" describes okie best.

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@djjd62,

In case you haven't heard, the game here is to post relevant information and honestly debate your political philosophy and issues, not calling names. I placed those people on ignore because they insisted upon doing the latter. I have no intention of reading dyslexia's posts, because I have yet to see him post anything with substantive reasoning.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

map, I think you've got a good head on your shoulders and a good heart. I can understand why this is frustrating to you. I'd worry less about pleasing an individual to prove something. You've deomstrated here that your politics are pretty well for the benefit of most people (hard to say all people for anyone's politics, even mine). In light of that, I think you're "doing" already, I think however what gets lost in translation with you is how you communicate the issue.

I have lots of friends that combat this same problem. They feel the need to prove they are the good white person. Being white is a part of your identity, and a huge part of your life experience. You've certainly demonstrated your ability for sympathy where empathy lacks. Teeny has some good points, but certainly a chip on the shoulder.

Thanks TKO. I don't feel that I need to exactly prove that I'm a good white person.

But when people complain about what white people do or have done to them (such as the plot to keep black people addicted to drugs, that goes all the way up to Clinton, and now Obama), I really don't know how they expect white people who didn't do this to them to respond. Or what they expect white people to do.

I don't know what it was like to be alive during the time where black people had to fear for their lives from white people; I can't ever understand that.

But what am I supposed to do about that now, in teenys mind? Am I doing enough? Should I be doing more?

I understand that I think I'm doing enough by supporting policies or politicians that I believe to be doing things in the greatest good of all people (most of the time). But I'm truly curious as to what teeny thinks I need to be doing.

She's the one that made this personal and was quite unprovoked; I'm really interested in her response, if she'd be so kind to provide one.

Like gala said, there are probably many people who she's speaking for. What do they want me (a white person) to do about these things TODAY/RIGHT NOW. I can't change the past or what my ancestors did, can't do it, not possible.

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@okie,

i thought from reading you post the game was basketball

perhaps i was wrong

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Gala, Good points! Some people never learn to fit in the shoes of people who have "lived it."

Ok CI, I concede your point. I will never be black, or hispanic, or asian, etc.

Knowing that, what do you want me to do about it?
What actions do you want me to take?
I'm really looking for some actual things that people in minority populations want the majority to DO!!!!

Is just knowing that I'll never be black the only action anyone wants me to take?

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche, I don't believe you have to prove to anybody who you are; most people know by your words and actions. I also think you are overly sensitive to one individual's postings on a2k who happens to be black.

My personal opinion about you: I think you're one of the good guys, and need not worry about how others respond to you. I wouldn't let one individual upset my well being no matter who they are.

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@maporsche,

By and large, Maporsche, I think teeny was out of line calling you a racist. To tell the truth I didn't ever read her posts, just read your responses to it and didn't realize she insulted you until you brought it up.

On the other hand it is not hard to emphasize for people who live everyday right now with issues in which whites simply don't. It is not facing reality to say that racial prejudice is a thing of a past in the US. Not all prejudice is overt and can be conveyed with wiggle room for denial. Racial profiling is done all the time, both by the police and just store owners and the like.

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I agree that it was out of line to call MaP a racist, no evidence of that.

I would suggest to Okie that telling people to 'get over their color' is a good way to start a fight, no matter how you intend for it to be taken. It's sort of like me telling you to get over your Conservatism.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Gala, Good points! Some people never learn to fit in the shoes of people who have "lived it."

Ok CI, I concede your point. I will never be black, or hispanic, or asian, etc.

Knowing that, what do you want me to do about it?
What actions do you want me to take?
I'm really looking for some actual things that people in minority populations want the majority to DO!!!!

Is just knowing that I'll never be black the only action anyone wants me to take?

Why not just try a little empathy? Imagine what it's like, day after day, knowing you have to be better than every other applicant for a job, to even be considered. To be watched like a potential thief, whenever you're in a store. To know that any time you're in a group of people; some of them view you with disdain for no reason at all. To have total strangers view you as threatening, for no particular reason. To have your every complaint filtered through preconcieved distaste and thoughts of affimative action. To know your ancestry worked as hard as anyone's, but were able to pass none of the tremendous value of their work down through the generations.

On a micro-level, sure, we all have our crosses to bear... but as soon as you pull the focus back to the macro you have to admit that minorities have a much higher hill to climb, to some degree, in virtually every facet of their lives. Those who achieve do so against higher odds than you or I have ever faced. No, there isn't a hell of a lot you can DO about it... the world is an unfair place. What you can do; is try to consider things from the other guy's perspective. We all have our prejudices, but it's our duty as human beings to at least try to steer the ship around them.

P.s. FWIW, I don’t think you deserved to be harshly singled out the way you were.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Imagining would be sympathy, not empathy. I think map's line of questioning is valid. What is expected of him/anyone to do? He shouldn't have to prove he's NOT a racist. Why can't people be respected until they've commited some offense?

This to me is the problem with the dialog abotu race in the USA: On one end we have people who wish to trivialize it, on the other end people inflate it. It's either too bad or not bad enough. We can't ever get to the actual discussion on what actualy transpires or what needs to be done.

T
K
O

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hey okie, got game?

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If you like an open internet, whereby JK Auto Repair has a site that is as availble as the one Goldman Sachs has, you should be glad that Obama, and noto McCain, won.

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/

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@okie,

You can think what you like and I don't have "woe is me, syndrome" either. In spite of "some" people having a "patriarchal" attitude that THEY know better how to direct people they think of as "lesser" than themselves out of an attitude that THEY are the privileged ones and you better not get in THEIR way, less they'll "put you in your place"!

I have had a good life in spite of racism, bigotry, sexism and other preconceived notions about who Blacks are and built in prejudices about people of other races in general. In spite of racism, prejudice and bigotry, I DON'T have a so-called CHIP on my shoulder! What, I don't buy the schitt some of you think and I should bow down and thank you, Massa? It's funny I have a boatload of white friends who feel the same way I do about race and prejudice in the US and I don't spend all day and night talking about it.

It's just in THIS group and THIS forum, a prevalence of so-called "conservative" people who speak for so-called "handkerchief head" blacks that they pat on the head for agreeing with their racist bullschitt, while they bow and scrape to be accepted. Whoopee! Well, Hillary Clinton will be President before THAT happens!

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Teeny, Lets use your logic and see if you can live by your own standards.

Since you are not now nor ever will be white, male, a veteran, wealthy or extremely poor, you can not speak about the experiences of any of those groups of people, how they feel, whay they think, or anything else.

You can only speak about things that have actually happened to you.

Since that is the standard you want to apply to others, lets see if you can live by that.

Somehow I dont think you can.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I agree that it was out of line to call MaP a racist, no evidence of that.

I would suggest to Okie that telling people to 'get over their color' is a good way to start a fight, no matter how you intend for it to be taken. It's sort of like me telling you to get over your Conservatism.

Cycloptichorn

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. I remind you again with what MLK said, it should be the content of our character that matters, not the color of our skin. Our political views and beliefs are part of our character and personality.

Perhaps also relative to the subject you have touched on here, cyclops, I reject the idea that political views are part of being black. Unfortunately, some race hustlers have tried to propagate that belief, that blackness involves a certain political viewpoint be held, or you simply are not black enough. Even teeny has insinuated that conservative black people are "oreos," which I interpret to mean black on the outside but white on the inside. This nonsensical idea propagates the idea that black people must hold a liberal Democratic viewpoint, or they simply are not black on the inside. This is I think an outlandish and ridiculous way of portraying it, and some even went so far down this road as to label Bill Clinton the first black president, implying although he was white on the outside, he was black on the inside by virtue of being a liberal socialist type of president.

The entire idea that black people have to think a certain way to be black is preposterous, and it should be rejected out of hand. Black people are like white people, in that every person is an individual and should form their own opinions, they should not be herded around like a bunch of sheep. But that is what the Democrats and race hustlers want them to believe, and unfortunately too many have believed for too long. That is why I so admire those that have the guts to stand up and proclaim their own beliefs and also believe in their own abilities, hard work, and accomplishments, and reject the crap coming out of the race hustlers like Jesse Jackson that pretend that they speak for the entire black community. I think a good many are tired of that, and I hope more and more grow tired of it. That is what I am appealing to you about, teeny, identify yourself as an individual based upon your hard work and accomplishments, and do not continue to buy the bilge coming out of the Jessie Jacksons, etc.

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@teenyboone,

teenyboone wrote:

You can think what you like and I don't have "woe is me, syndrome" either. In spite of "some" people having a "patriarchal" attitude that THEY know better how to direct people they think of as "lesser" than themselves out of an attitude that THEY are the privileged ones and you better not get in THEIR way, less they'll "put you in your place"!

I have had a good life in spite of racism, bigotry, sexism and other preconceived notions about who Blacks are and built in prejudices about people of other races in general. In spite of racism, prejudice and bigotry, I DON'T have a so-called CHIP on my shoulder! What, I don't buy the schitt some of you think and I should bow down and thank you, Massa? It's funny I have a boatload of white friends who feel the same way I do about race and prejudice in the US and I don't spend all day and night talking about it.

It's just in THIS group and THIS forum, a prevalence of so-called "conservative" people who speak for so-called "handkerchief head" blacks that they pat on the head for agreeing with their racist bullschitt, while they bow and scrape to be accepted. Whoopee! Well, Hillary Clinton will be President before THAT happens!

I don't follow all that you say. On the one hand, you seem to be saying you have succeeded and do not have a chip on your shoulder, but then other things you say seem to contradict that, you seem to approach people with a suspicion that they are racist until proven otherwise, example maporsche, if I have read some of this thread correctly. You also seem to think I am racist, that is the drift I get, but no, I do not think you have a shred of evidence. My parents were never racist and they never taught us that, and I do not believe in it, nor do I practice it.

Look, there is no doubt there is racism around, but I also think some of it is self perceived. Example, how many people have been fired from a job or did not get a job they applied for? Almost everyone I think. But if you have a pre-conceived notion that the reason you got fired or did not get a job was or is going to be due to your race, then there is a problem. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. No doubt race can be a factor for some employers, however the percentage of cases I think would be far far smaller than the percentage of recipents that might perceive it being due to race. I will cite an example, I knew a guy once that had a complex about being short. He was convinced that he got fired or never got jobs because of his height. However, I think it was way overblown in his mind, and his perception was not reality. I think the same can happen with race if children are taught that they will be discriminated against at every turn. Sure there is some out there, but I do not think it is profitable to be looking for it, or to be attributing every problem that you have as it being automatically the cause, because it ends up enlarging the scope of a manageable problem into a much larger one in the mind.

Anyway, thanks for exchanging ideas on this, I perceive you as being a pretty reasonable person actually, and also that you might be in a bit of a state of flux in your political views. Therefore I am hopeful I can sway you a little bit toward the conservative side, by pointing out to you the logical fallacies that exist on the left, that I think you may be seeing to some extent but are not yet willing to admit because it may also mean forsaking what your parents, family, or friends may have believed or still believe.

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Lincoln bedroom for sale?

"Lobbyists and Democratic fundraisers Anthony and Heather Podesta made several visits, all to Obama aides. Anthony Podesta, whose brother, John, headed Obama's transition team, visited the White House complex at least five times, all on behalf of lobbying clients."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/31/celebs-lobbyists-white-house-guests/

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Heres an interesting article about the jobs that have been "saved" by the Obama admin.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/10/160000-per-stimulus-job-white-house-calls-that-calculator-abuse.html

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Posting its results late this afternoon at Recovery.gov, the White House claimed 640,329 jobs have been created or saved because of the $159 billion in stimulus funds allocated as of Sept. 30.

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Brian Schmidt, director of planning and programming for the commission said that his staff originally reported to the Obama administration that the stimulus money saved 250 jobs. Then, realizing they had mistakenly double credited, they later changed that to 125 jobs. Tuesday, they updated it again to 74 jobs.

From 250 to 74?
That means that they are overreporting jobs, doesnt it?

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Ed DeSeve, senior advisor to the president for Recovery Act implementation, said he'd been "scrubbing" the job estimates so much since they came it at the beginning of the month that he now has "dishpan hands and my fingers are worn to the nub."

What does that mean?
Is he saying that he is constantly having to revise down the number of jobs?

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White House officials heralded the unparalleled transparency in reporting job numbers to the public, but acknowledged there is no consistent standard across states or localities, or among federal agencies giving out stimulus funds, in differentiating between a “saved” job and a “created” job.

So they dont know the difference either?

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The White House argues that the actual job number is actually larger than 640,000 -- closer to 1 million jobs when one factors in stimulus jobs added in October and, more importantly, jobs created indirectly, such as "the waitress who's still on the job," Vice President Biden said today.

So if the waitress is "still on the job", how was her job created indirectly?
She already had the job, so it wasnt "created" for her.

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So let's see. Assuming their number is right -- 160 billion divided by 1 million. Does that mean the stimulus costs taxpayers $160,000 per job?

Jared Bernstein, chief economist and senior economic advisor to the vice president, called that "calculator abuse."

He said the cost per job was actually $92,000 -- but acknowledged that estimate is for the whole stimulus package as of the end of 2010.

So the govt is comparing the entire year, while only posting the results up to Sept 30.
How can they say what will happen in the future?

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Joining Biden at an event in which reporters were not permitted to ask questions,

So much for openness and transparency in govt.

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Of the 640,329 jobs cited today, White House officials said 80,000 were in the construction sector and more than half -- 325,000 -- were education jobs, despite President Obama's claim in January that 90 percent of the stimulus jobs would be in the private sector. Bernstein said Mr. Obama's pledge was an assessment of the totality of the jobs saved or created by the end of 2010.

Again, how do they know how many will be saved or created in the future?

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Officials pointed out that today’s report did not include jobs saved or created by more than $80 billion in tax cuts, as well as other money in the $787 billion stimulus package, such as $250 stimulus checks for 54 million Americans

.

So how did a $250 check create or save a job?

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