okie
 
  0  
Wed 19 Aug, 2009 09:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
And when you take the illegals out of the 45 million uninsured or so, also the people that make enough to buy their own insurance but don't, and those that are elgible for Medicaid already but don't sign up, there are not very many people left that need coverage. It would certainly cost us less than the trillions it will cost to go to Obama's ultimate wish of a single payer system.

We are broke already without adding this boondoggle. Social Security and Medicare is going broke. The entire federal government are going broke, and fast, under Obama.
snood
 
  2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 05:13 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

They already do that. Its called Medicaid. If that needs fixing, then fix that, don't mess with the whole thing.


Medicaid doesn't cover everyone. If you want to 'fix' medicaid so that every single person is eligible - fine with us. You are accomplishing the exact same thing we want, just with a different name on it. Bravo.

However, I'm surprised to hear you say that, as Medicaid operates as... a single-payer system.

Cycloptichorn


Medicaid is not a single payer system. Medicaid is a federal/state system that is purely volunary on the part of the states. Once a state sets up Medicaid, however, the state will receive federal subsidies for the program and is subject to federal rules. The state may implement separate and different rules so long as those do not conflict with the federal rules.

Many if not most states allow Medicaid to be managed through private insurance companies just as Medicare can be administered by private insurance companies or other private entities. Elstud and I enjoy just such a Medicare plan and it is very well administered and we are well taken care of.

The kind of plan we have however, is one that President Obama has specifically said he wants to do away with.


That's funny - are we listening to the same Obama? The one I'm listening to has said over and over and over that "if you like the plan you have and want to keep it, you can keep it". When and where has he "specifically"said he wants to "do away" with "your kind of plan"?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:29 am
@snood,
That's what I've been asking so many times of okie, but he refuses to answer. He dreams up stuff, then repeats them as if they are true or facts. He told us he graduated at the top of his class, but I've seen nothing from his postings that shows he's even living in the majority reality. He claims he reads books, but most challenge him on the interpretation of them, and he still repeats BS.

I just wonder what color the sky is in his part of the world?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:41 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

That's funny - are we listening to the same Obama? The one I'm listening to has said over and over and over that "if you like the plan you have and want to keep it, you can keep it". When and where has he "specifically"said he wants to "do away" with "your kind of plan"?


No, she's right on this one - medicare advantage is on the chopping block, because it is a subsidy paid by the government to private insurers, to the tune of roughly 15 billion a year.

She'll still get to keep her plan - medicare - but we won't be paying a corporation to administer it any longer.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:58 am
@Cycloptichorn,
From the LA Times.
Quote:
latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-medicare19-2009aug19,0,3854130.story
latimes.com
The next healthcare battle: Cutting Medicare Advantage
The program gives private insurers a federal subsidy to handle seniors' care. Some swear by it, but others say it's wasteful.


By Christi Parsons and Andrew Zajac

August 19, 2009

Reporting from Washington

President Obama, struggling to discredit bogus charges that his healthcare overhaul would create "death panels," soon could face another emotionally charged obstacle -- a plan to trim the federal subsidy for a program used by nearly a quarter of Medicare beneficiaries.

The program, known as Medicare Advantage, pays insurance companies a hefty premium to enroll senior citizens and provide their medical services through managed-care networks.

But whether the higher payments are worth it is a matter of dispute.

Obama and many congressional Democrats see Advantage as a wasteful bonanza averaging about $17 billion a year for the companies, which critics say provide few benefits beyond regular Medicare.

The companies and their supporters say they earn the extra payments by providing seniors -- who pay nothing extra -- with significant benefits, including freedom from government red tape.

What lifts the disagreement above other points of contention on healthcare is its potential for spreading fear and outrage among Medicare recipients as a whole, much like the public outcry after Republicans accused Democrats of trying to create death panels to cut off care for severely ill seniors and the disabled.

The allegation, although untrue, fueled outrage among critics of the healthcare overhaul at town hall meetings across the country.

Although scaling back payments would have no effect on a sizable majority of Medicare users, it would create an opening for opponents to make the blanket allegation that the president wants to cut back on Medicare benefits -- as some Republicans are already starting to say.

Obama and his supporters acknowledge the risk.

"This will not be painless," said Robert Berenson, a physician and healthcare policy analyst at the liberal-leaning Urban Institute.

The White House is counting on convincing seniors, with their powerful lobbying presence in Washington, that in order to fix the overall healthcare system, they have to cut the fat out.

For the last few years, Medicare Advantage has been a sheltered corner of the national health plan.

When congressional Republicans first began expanding private insurance options for Medicare in 1997, advocates argued that the plans would actually deliver services more efficiently and hence less expensively.

But the spending on Advantage plans grew over time.

The plans now cost the government about 14% more per person than does regular Medicare, according to a recent analysis by the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, which recommends reimbursement rates to Congress.

"Payment increases have been so large that plans no longer need to be efficient to attract enrollees," the commission's executive director, Mark E. Miller, told Congress in June 2008.

Today, the sheer size of the program, which serves about 10.2 million seniors out of more than 45 million Medicare users, offers an opportunity for savings that the Office of Management and Budget puts at $177 billion over 10 years.

Obama joined the Advantage critics in 2007 while campaigning in Iowa, when he cited the arrangement as an example of Medicare waste.

Now his plan is to reduce payments to Advantage so that they are equal or comparable to the payments for regular Medicare.

As part of their healthcare talks, lawmakers have suggested reducing the rates through competitive bidding or by fiat -- perhaps setting payments at levels not to exceed traditional Medicare.

"We should not be subsidizing insurance companies to provide Medicare benefits that cost 14% more," said Kenneth Baer of the president's Office of Management and Budget.

Some members of the senior citizens lobby agree.

"We think having choices and competition within Medicare is important, but they should not add to the cost of the program," said Jordan McNerney, a spokesman for AARP.

Though the organization isn't backing any particular healthcare bill at the moment, McNerney said: "We are in support of cutting back the subsidies to private insurers over time so they compete on a level playing field with traditional Medicare."

But the insurers who provide the Advantage plans see it differently -- and so do many seniors who have enrolled.

In late July, for example, Maurice Engleman, 82, of Palm Springs made the rounds on Capitol Hill, presenting himself as proof of the program's benefits.

Last year, Engleman was diagnosed with tongue cancer shortly after his wife died.

Desert Oasis Healthcare, the firm handling his Medicare Advantage account, assigned a nurse to guide him through a thicket of doctor visits and hospitalizations, including what turned out to be 30 radiation treatments. Engleman said that she met him at every appointment.

"Physically and emotionally, I felt completely supported," he said. "I really don't think I would have made it without this continuum of care."

Engleman, who said he now is free of cancer, acknowledged the additional expense of Medicare Advantage for taxpayers, but argued that it was cost-effective.

"It might cost $1,000 more, but if I didn't have to go to the hospital, that might save Medicare $5,000," he said.

Despite the rising controversy, the Advantage plans seem headed for significant change.

The trick will be to structure a reimbursement plan for private insurers that preserves potential for a fair profit, said Len Nichols, a healthcare economist at the centrist New America Foundation.

"There's a legitimate discussion to be had about the smartest way to pay them," said Nichols, who advocates forcing providers to bid for seniors' business and paying them bonuses for achieving quality-of-care goals.

"Make them more competitive," he said. "Make them earn the money instead of just handing it to them."

[email protected]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 12:00 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

And when you take the illegals out of the 45 million uninsured or so, also the people that make enough to buy their own insurance but don't, and those that are elgible for Medicaid already but don't sign up, there are not very many people left that need coverage. It would certainly cost us less than the trillions it will cost to go to Obama's ultimate wish of a single payer system.

We are broke already without adding this boondoggle. Social Security and Medicare is going broke. The entire federal government are going broke, and fast, under Obama.


I'm not sure why you think a single-payer system would be more expensive than the one we currently have; pretty much everyone else agrees that it would be LESS expensive. And we certainly see that to be the case in other countries which utilize such systems.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 12:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
okie keeps repeating false charges against the health plan now being developed; there is nothing about providing health care to illegal immigrants, but he loves to repeat that old carnage that should have died a long time ago.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:33 pm
And in all matters of government, not just where Obama is concerned, it is always wise to follow the money just in case there are some who stand to benefit more than others and this affects their advocacy for whatever.

Already the universal healthcare proposals are revealing some strange bedfellows:

Quote:
Firms with Obama ties profit from health push
By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Aug 19, 6:08 pm ET

WASHINGTON " President Barack Obama's push for a national health care overhaul is providing a financial windfall in the election offseason to Democratic consulting firms that are closely connected to the president and two top advisers.

Coalitions of interest groups running at least $24 million in pro-overhaul ads hired GMMB, which worked for Obama's 2008 campaign and whose partners include a top Obama campaign strategist. They also hired AKPD Message and Media, which was founded by David Axelrod, a top adviser to Obama's campaign and now to the White House. AKPD did work for Obama's campaign, and Axelrod's son Michael and Obama's campaign manager David Plouffe work there.

The firms were hired by Americans for Stable Quality Care and its predecessor, Healthy Economy Now. Each was formed by a coalition of interests with big stakes in health care policy, including the drug maker lobby PhRMA, the American Medical Association, the Service Employees International Union and Families USA, which calls itself "The Voice for Health Care Consumers."

Their ads press for changes in health care policy. Healthy Economy Now made one of the same arguments that Obama does: that health care costs are delaying the country's economic recovery and that changes are needed if the economy is to rebound.

There is no evidence that Axelrod directly profited from the group's ads. Axelrod took steps to separate himself from AKPD when he joined Obama's White House. AKPD owes him $2 million from his stock sale and will make preset payments over four years, starting with $350,000 on Dec. 31, according to Axelrod's personal financial disclosure report.

A larger issue is a network of relationships and overlapping interests that resembles some seen in past administrations and could prove a problem as Obama tries to win the public over on health care and fulfill his promise to change the way Washington works, said Sheila Krumholz, executive director of the Center for Responsive Politics, a government watchdog group.

"Even if these are obvious bedfellows and kind of standard PR maneuvers, it still stands to undercut Obama's credibility," Krumholz said. "The potential takeaway from the public is 'friends in cahoots to engineer a grass roots result.'"
More. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_consultants
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
The Plot Against David Axelrod
By David Weigel 8/20/09 9:49 AM

Over at Human Events, Rowan Scarborough attempts to advance the story, first floated by House Republicans, of David Axelrod’s long-disclosed financial gains from the sale of his political firms, AKP&D Message and Media and Ask Public Strategies.

AKP, which shares Chicago office space with Ask, is now getting contracts from major groups assembled to push Obama’s massive health care agenda. They include Healthy Economy Now and Americans for Stable Quality Care. Their million-dollar media blitz is financed in part my the giant pharmaceutical industry which has a big stake in how the White House " and Axelrod " craft a final health care bill.

Scarborough argues that Axelrod “benefits from any business they receive as do other people on the payroll,” which is only true insofar as Axelrod might lose his installments if the firms went belly-up. The pay-out of $1 million from Ask and $2 million from AKP is locked in; it doesn’t go up or down depending on what passes in Congress. It’s enough to get an attack going, though.


http://washingtonindependent.com/55739/the-plot-against-david-axelrod

Weak - and as I already told Okie, coming from a group who supported the Cheney-Halliburton relationship for years, Double weak.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:42 pm
@snood,
Quote:
That's funny - are we listening to the same Obama? The one I'm listening to has said over and over and over that "if you like the plan you have and want to keep it, you can keep it". When and where has he "specifically"said he wants to "do away" with "your kind of plan"?


Obama has said a whole lot of stuff 'over and over' that hasn't worked out as advertised. For most of that, we should have known from the clues he dropped back on the campaign trail or mixed in with larger addresses in his sales promotions for this or that. Just as a solemn pledge that the Middle Class would not see their taxes raised one dime is out the window, just as a solemn pledge to allow no earmarks sort of got slipped past on a technicality, sort of as a solemn pledge for complete and total transparency of all actions signed into law didn't quite make it as an actuality, so is the solemn pledge that everybody will just be able to keep their health plan if they like it an empty promise. It is also an impossible promise if other components of his healthcare proposals are adopted.

The fact that the Medicare Advantage program is slated for the trash heap once universal coverage goes into effect is just one way that other promises won't be kept. Once you dissolve the program, you dissolve the structure administering it, and the millions of Americans in these plans will find themselves competing with millions of others trying to find new doctors.

And anybody who thinks the government is capable of setting up and administering the efficient and user friendly network of services that these plans offer will no doubt be interested in a nice assortment of bridges I still have to sell.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Trash heap? Wow, you guys really know how to exaggerate! From death panels to government control of health care; where do you people get your information from? FOXNews?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

And anybody who thinks the government is capable of setting up and administering the efficient and user friendly network of services that these plans offer will no doubt be interested in a nice assortment of bridges I still have to sell.


Is it worth pointing out that the government built those bridges? Nah, probably not.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
And anybody who thinks the government is capable of setting up and administering the efficient and user friendly network of services that these plans offer will no doubt be interested in a nice assortment of bridges I still have to sell.

"Efficient and user friendly" is not how I would describe my health insurance carrier.

My pharmacy, yes.

My doctor, mostly.

My insurance company, no. Insurers make money by not paying money.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:37 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
And anybody who thinks the government is capable of setting up and administering the efficient and user friendly network of services that these plans offer will no doubt be interested in a nice assortment of bridges I still have to sell.

"Efficient and user friendly" is not how I would describe my health insurance carrier.

My pharmacy, yes.

My doctor, mostly.

My insurance company, no. Insurers make money by not paying money.


She works in the insurance industry, and is contractually prevented from badmouthing it Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:37 pm
Why does everybody here address these issues in terms of what's going on now and what went on in the recent past.

Governments do projections into the future. 50 years forward is not unusual.

The planning has to be done to take account of these projections and it might be that UHC is deemed necessary. Possibly by both parties. But the democrats are simply in a better position to sell it to their supporters, who are not, and cannot be expected to be, even remotely familiar with the exigencies of the projections. Nor can the opposition supporters.

A Democrat victory in the election thus provides an opportunity to make a start on what is an extremely difficult task.

UHC seems to me to be inevitable at some stage. There are already many government regulations relating to health care.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:06 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
And anybody who thinks the government is capable of setting up and administering the efficient and user friendly network of services that these plans offer will no doubt be interested in a nice assortment of bridges I still have to sell.

"Efficient and user friendly" is not how I would describe my health insurance carrier.

My pharmacy, yes.

My doctor, mostly.

My insurance company, no. Insurers make money by not paying money.


You must not be with an Advantage group. The Presbyterian network here in New Mexico has its flaws for sure, but it is very good. They have the medical professionals and the infrastructure (hospitals, urgent care, walk in clinics etc.) to handle many thousands of patients efficiently, effectively, and competently and a wide variety of specialists for referrals to deal with special needs.

Is it perfect. No. Are there frustrations? Yes. But all in all, they do provide superb service with short and tolerable waiting periods as needed for elective surgeries and procedures, and immediate and competent care for emergencies or necessary attention for illnesses. We know where to go to get our X-ray, MRI, blood work, etc. and everybody has a personal physician monitoring the entire process. When my husband recently had a medical condition that would have become serious without attention, he could call his symptoms to his doctor who had his entire history at his fingertips--a necessary prescription was called in with follow up lab work just to be sure they were attacking the right bug, and he avoided having a serious medical emergency.

I can't imagine a government managed program would be anywhere near as people friendly or as efficient or as effective. But we will lose our plan if the President has his way.

But hey, remember the "We are the ones we have been waiting for" line? Well, the messiah is now invoking God to get by the 'death panel' thing I guess. (I wonder what you guys would be saying about George Bush if he had used Obama's line: "We are God's partners in matters of life and death.")

Quote:
August 19, 2009
Categories: Healthcare

'We are God's partners in matters of life and death'

A reader points out that President Obama's call with the rabbis today " as recorded in Rabbi Jack Moline's and other clerics' Twitter feeds " freights health care reform with a great deal of religious meaning, and veers into the blend of policy and faith that outraged liberals in the last administration.

"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," Obama said, according to Moline (paging Sarah Palin...), quoting from the Rosh Hashanah prayer that says that in the holiday period, it is decided "who shall live and who shall die."

The president ended the call by wishing the rabbis "shanah tovah," or happy new year " in reference to the High Holidays a month from now.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0809/We_are_Gods_partners_in_matters_of_life_and_death.html?showall




Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

I can't imagine a government managed program would be anywhere near as people friendly or as efficient or as effective. But we will lose our plan if the President has his way.


This is where you are wrong - your program isn't efficient. They operate the way they do, b/c the government is paying them millions of dollars to do so.

Easy to provide a lot of services, when you are being subsidized by the taxpayers, Fox. Hell, you should be thanking the rest of us for paying for YOUR health problems - something you don't want to do for others.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:30 pm
As I read the bill...http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

I am noticing a few things.

First of all, lets look at something.
The bill applies to residents of all 50 states, it does NOT apply to citizens living in any US territories or possessions...

And in Section 102 it quite clearly says that private insurance CANNOT enroll anyone if the effective date is after the date of the implementation of the bill.

It also says that a private insurance company CANNOT change any of the terms or conditions, cost sharing, or benefits after the day the bill is implemented.

So, the govt is going to allow you to keep your insurance, as long as it meets the govts approval.

I am still reading the bill, and will let you know as I find more.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:34 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:

And in Section 102 it quite clearly says that private insurance CANNOT enroll anyone if the effective date is after the date of the implementation of the bill.


I think they can, but the plans they enroll into must meet the NEW regulations, whereas older ones are exempt? Not sure from reading...

Cyclotpichorn
mysteryman
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The way its worded it could be read either way.

And that is scary.
What happened to the "clear, concise, plain english" they promised.
And what will stop a future admin from changing the way any section of the bill is interpreted, just to suit themselves?
 

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