Obama '08?

@snood,

I apologise. Didn't mean to sound snide. It just disappointed me to see such negativity from you, regardless of the legitimacy of your point (or otherwise). Obama was never going to meet the enormous expectations placed on him, but to see you giving him stick was, well, dissapointing. I thought you'd be one of the last to pick up a pitchfork. I confess I'm the kinda guy who stays on the last dry bit of the Titianic saying, "Hey, relax, it's unsinkable! I'm sure they know what they're doing."

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I still believe Obama is a principled, intelligent and gifted person who I am glad is my president, but I know he's human, and I want to hold him to the fire if I think he's ******* up.

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@Eorl,

From what I have observed, this health plan is in big trouble, because even some democrats are against it, so the democratic majority in congress doesn't mean too much at this point in the process.

It's more difficult to fight fires that's already spread as wildly as the rhetoric about health care in this country. Many people repeat stuff that's not even in the plan, but many don't know any better and repeat them to others.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times a) there was never a plan to have death panels, b) the government is not going to take over health care, and c) those with health plans now and are happy with it can keep them.

It's an uphill battle just to provide the facts, and no matter how often it's repeated, it seems futile.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

From what I have observed, this health plan is in big trouble, because even some democrats are against it, so the democratic majority in congress doesn't mean too much at this point in the process.

There you go. You elect a bossman only he can't say what goes. He's paralysed. Like I've been saying. It's all a load of talk for the sake of talking. No change.

Melville said that if all the navies (transport) upped sticks to the moon everything would come to a stop except the earth revolving on its axis and orators on Congress. That's wittier and truer than your Einstein quote ci.

That's what comes of not trusting your government.

The reason that I'm on Ignore for saying that you can't get UHC with your political process is to enable you to all go on orating pointlessly and in the best possible taste.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

go on orating pointlessly

Hmmm. Orating pointlessly--who does this remind me of? Give a minute. I'm sure I'll think of it soon.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times a) there was never a plan to have death panels, b) the government is not going to take over health care, and c) those with health plans now and are happy with it can keep them.

It's an uphill battle just to provide the facts, and no matter how often it's repeated, it seems futile.

Its an uphill battle because people are catching on to Obama, that he is not to be trusted. Such as yeah, you can keep your health plan, like you can keep using UPS, (but I will regulate UPS out of business, I just haven't told you that yet.) Your naivity is showing, ci.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times a) there was never a plan to have death panels, b) the government is not going to take over health care, and c) those with health plans now and are happy with it can keep them.

It's an uphill battle just to provide the facts, and no matter how often it's repeated, it seems futile.

Its an uphill battle because people are catching on to Obama, that he is not to be trusted. Such as yeah, you can keep your health plan, like you can keep using UPS, (but I will regulate UPS out of business, I just haven't told you that yet.) Your naivity is showing, ci.

UPS isn't in business? They've been competing with the government for some time now, I believe, how have they managed to stay in business?

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

By providing vastly superior service at often better rates.

But the government does not yet control UPS like they plan to control the medical insurance business.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

By providing vastly superior service at often better rates.

But the government does not yet control UPS like they plan to control the medical insurance business.

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

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Not to go off on a tangent, but no other appropriate thread that I could find, and it isn't worth its own thread at this point, but what is Richardson up to, or is he doing something for Obama, he says he isn't but that doesn't mean much in my book, what is this about? Seems a rather weird way to spend the governor's time.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/19/n-korean-officials-meet-richardson-nm/?test=latestnews

N. Korean Officials in New Mexico to Meet Richardson
Two North Korean diplomats are in Santa Fe and will meet with Gov. Bill Richardson on Wednesday.

FOXNews.com

Wednesday, August 19, 2009

SANTA FE, N.M. -- Two North Korean diplomats are in Santa Fe and will meet with Gov. Bill Richardson on Wednesday.

A spokesman for Richardson said a delegation from the North Korean mission to the United Nations will meet at the governor's mansion for a daylong meeting but the topic was not disclosed.
Richardson spokeswoman Alarie Ray-Garcia stressed that "the governor will not be negotiating with them in any way and is not representing the Obama administration."

She said Kim Myong-Gil, a North Korean delegate to the United Nations, had requested the meeting, which will take place for "most of the day."

The delegation, which includes Minister Kim and Councilor Jong Ho Paek, also are scheduled to receive briefings on renewable energy initiatives in New Mexico on Thursday.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business.

Yeah, maybe in reality. I just don't think that's relevant for okie's argument.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

They already do that. Its called Medicaid. If that needs fixing, then fix that, don't mess with the whole thing.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business.

Yeah, maybe in reality. I just don't think that's relevant for okie's argument.

No it isn't relevant because only a dummie would believe it. We know that Obama wants single payer, and so do liberal Democrats, they just don't have enough votes now, so they will try the incremental approach. The obvious solution for conservatives is to vote no on that as well.

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@okie,

Only a dummie would believe anything other than what's in the actual plan.

That'd be you!

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

They already do that. Its called Medicaid. If that needs fixing, then fix that, don't mess with the whole thing.

Medicaid doesn't cover everyone. If you want to 'fix' medicaid so that every single person is eligible - fine with us. You are accomplishing the exact same thing we want, just with a different name on it. Bravo.

However, I'm surprised to hear you say that, as Medicaid operates as... a single-payer system.

Cycloptichorn

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@okie,

The current proposal is miles away from being a single payer system. That leaves you with two options:

You can argue against the actual proposal.
You can resort to a conspiracy theory about how the current proposal is not at all what Democrats really want, that they're still going to institute a system they don't want, only to secretly, when people are not paying attention, transform it into a single payer system.

Faced with that, you choose option 2, calling anybody who bases his arguments on the actual proposal a "dummie".

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@old europe,

oe, It's not even conspiracy theory; it's all dreamed up in okie's brain without an ounce of evidence in what he says. He has never shown proof or any primary source for his fear-mongering. He's a basket case that belongs in some mental institution where they don't mind working with people who's reality has long left them.

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@cicerone imposter,

And since there is no actual plan yet, how big a dummy are you for accepting the govts word for whats going to happen?

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

They already do that. Its called Medicaid. If that needs fixing, then fix that, don't mess with the whole thing.

Medicaid doesn't cover everyone. If you want to 'fix' medicaid so that every single person is eligible - fine with us. You are accomplishing the exact same thing we want, just with a different name on it. Bravo.

However, I'm surprised to hear you say that, as Medicaid operates as... a single-payer system.

Cycloptichorn

Medicaid is not a single payer system. Medicaid is a federal/state system that is purely volunary on the part of the states. Once a state sets up Medicaid, however, the state will receive federal subsidies for the program and is subject to federal rules. The state may implement separate and different rules so long as those do not conflict with the federal rules.

Many if not most states allow Medicaid to be managed through private insurance companies just as Medicare can be administered by private insurance companies or other private entities. Elstud and I enjoy just such a Medicare plan and it is very well administered and we are well taken care of.

The kind of plan we have however, is one that President Obama has specifically said he wants to do away with.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

In fact, the government does not plan to control the medical insurance business. What they plan on doing is entirely akin to operating the USPS - provide a low-cost public option to provide service for folks who can't afford more expensive options.

Cycloptichorn

They already do that. Its called Medicaid. If that needs fixing, then fix that, don't mess with the whole thing.

Medicaid doesn't cover everyone. If you want to 'fix' medicaid so that every single person is eligible - fine with us. You are accomplishing the exact same thing we want, just with a different name on it. Bravo.

However, I'm surprised to hear you say that, as Medicaid operates as... a single-payer system.

Cycloptichorn

Medicaid is not a single payer system. Medicaid is a federal/state system that is purely volunary on the part of the states. Once a state sets up Medicaid, however, the state will receive federal subsidies for the program and is subject to federal rules. The state may implement separate and different rules so long as those do not conflict with the federal rules.

Many if not most states allow Medicaid to be managed through private insurance companies just as Medicare can be administered by private insurance companies or other private entities. Elstud and I enjoy just such a Medicare plan and it is very well administered and we are well taken care of.

The kind of plan we have however, is one that President Obama has specifically said he wants to do away with.

You are correct; for some reason, I read 'medicaid' and thought 'medicare,' which is a single-payer system.

As for the Medicare Advantage, well. Those programs suck up quite a bit of tax money, yaknow. The US Govt, and us taxpayers by extension, pays for the profit the companies make to administer your health care.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

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