Obama '08?

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with separating marks from their money, it's economic Darwinism.

Is there something 'wrong' with looking at or thinking of another human being as a 'mark' in your world?
Just interested to know....

Marks for the most part know they are marks. When you go to the circus and see the show, you know that the magician isn't performing real magic, and that the fire-eater has a trick to it. Guys who step up to play three-card monte do so b/c they think they can beat the dealer, not because they are ignorant of what is going on. People pay their money anyway b/c they like the experience.

The same goes for political rallies. People come to have a good time and be surrounded by people who agree with them. If you are a vendor looking to make money at one of these rallies, you make your clients feel comfortable and happy; it does no good to tell your true political views to people who will likely disagree with them, if you are there to sell a product.

You are making a moral and ethical big deal out of something which isn't that big of a deal...

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Let's just agree to disagree, Cyclop. I probably won't ever have an occasion to do business with you, but I would sure want my attorney to look over any deal carefully before I did business with you if you are accurately relating what you see as ethical in your world. In my world it is much different.

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:

They weren't duped, tricked, or suckered. They simply failed to ask the appropriate questions - and you are assuming that they would even give a ****.

They didn't have to ask any questions - she was TELLING everyone how stupid Obama was:
Quote:

I saw a lady spouting anti-Obama slogans

She misrepresented herself.

As what? She was a seller of buttons and stickers who was giving a sales pitch. You can call that 'mis-representation' all you like, but that's not really the right way to look at things.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Let's just agree to disagree, Cyclop. I probably won't ever have an occasion to do business with you, but I would sure want my attorney to look over any deal carefully before I did business with you if you are accurately relating what you see as ethical in your world. In my world it is much different.

You certainly shouldn't assume that I am donating any money I make to anyone, if I don't tell you I am. Don't outsource your failure to perform due diligence upon the other party, as if it were their fault, Fox.

You still aren't admitting that, at the end of the day, the clients got the items they wanted at the price they wanted them; nobody was cheated out of anything here, period.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Oh, so you think the right way to look at things is to condone a person misrepresenting/ actively lying about what she thinks and why she's present during a sales pitch?

Jesus - I'm really starting to despair of the world my kids are gonna inherit.

2 Replies

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Oh, so you think the right way to look at things is to condone a person misrepresenting/ actively lying about what she thinks and why she's present during a sales pitch?

Jesus - I'm really starting to despair of the world my kids are gonna inherit.

Yeah, I think that's the right way to look at things. What the lady thought, or why she's present, has nothing to do whatsoever with the quality of the product. If you don't want the stupid bumper sticker, don't buy it; and if you did want it, what does it matter if the lady is a closet Obama supporter? It doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, but I don't live in some sort of fantasy world where those who are duped or mislead in some way bear zero responsibility for it. They do bear a certain responsibility for it; the marks like being fooled. All those people who signed on to mortgages they couldn't afford? They bear responsibility as well as those who sold them to them. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. If you assume someone is going to be donating money to a campaign, you'd better ask before purchasing stuff.

The lady in question may have been giving a bullshit sales pitch, but she certainly didn't cheat anyone out of anything at all.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Oh, so you think the right way to look at things is to condone a person misrepresenting/ actively lying about what she thinks and why she's present during a sales pitch?

Jesus - I'm really starting to despair of the world my kids are gonna inherit.

It's worse than that. He seems incapable of seeing that they DIDN'T get what they thought they were buying. He is incapable of seeing that they would have bought something else or from somebody else had the vendor not misrepresented herself.

In his world there was no unethical conduct at all.

Take courage though Aidan. The whole world isn't like him. And I remain convinced there are many more who share a sense of right and wrong with you and me than there are who share his views.

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I don't live in some sort of fantasy world where those who are duped or mislead in some way bear zero responsibility for it. They do bear a certain responsibility for it; the marks like being fooled. All those people who signed on to mortgages they couldn't afford? They bear responsibility as well as those who sold them to them. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. If you assume someone is going to be donating money to a campaign, you'd better ask before purchasing stuff.

I don't know what to say. I cannot relate at all to treating people as gullible fodder for moneymaking purposes or one's own amusement.
Maybe that's why I'm not in sales.
(No offence to any salespeople who actually care about their customers).

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

Take courage though Aidan. The whole world isn't like him. And I remain convinced there are many more who share a sense of right and wrong with you and me than there are who share his views.

I know there are Foxfyre. I asked a bunch of my friends I saw today, of all ages - all British though so the whole Democratic/Republican angle was lost - but I just described the woman's behavior.

They all said, 'That's not on...' (in other words - that's not kosher).

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

aidan wrote:

Oh, so you think the right way to look at things is to condone a person misrepresenting/ actively lying about what she thinks and why she's present during a sales pitch?

Jesus - I'm really starting to despair of the world my kids are gonna inherit.

It's worse than that. He seems incapable of seeing that they DIDN'T get what they thought they were buying. He is incapable of seeing that they would have bought something else or from somebody else had the vendor not misrepresented herself.

In his world there was no unethical conduct at all.

Take courage though Aidan. The whole world isn't like him. And I remain convinced there are many more who share a sense of right and wrong with you and me than there are who share his views.

Enough with the holier-than-thou bullshit, Fox.

What exactly do you think the person was buying? Not a good, apparently, because they received the goods they asked for.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

word

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, They're all talking through ignorance; nobody checks to see who the seller is to find out what their political affiliation (or anything else) is. Nobody - except Foxie and aiden, and probably okie.

Every time they approach a salesperson, they ask "what's your politics or religion?" I need to know because I don't buy from xxxx or xxxxx even though you're selling your product at a better price than WalMart.

0 Replies

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
Take courage though Aidan. The whole world isn't like him. And I remain convinced there are many more who share a sense of right and wrong with you and me than there are who share his views.

I know there are Foxfyre. I asked a bunch of my friends I saw today, of all ages - all British though so the whole Democratic/Republican angle was lost - but I just described the woman's behavior.

They all said, 'That's not on...' (in other words - that's not kosher).

I'm sure I could describe the situation to everyone I know, and get them to agree with me as well; it's all in the bias you describe it with.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

There is no right or wrong when a customer purchases a product from any vendor who could have purchased similar or the same product from other vendors in the area. Nobody has forced the sale; it was 100% voluntary on the buyer.

How was he/she wronged? It was a free market transaction.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

I'm sure I could describe the situation to everyone I know, and get them to agree with me as well; it's all in the bias you describe it with.

I didn't want or need anyone to agree with me. That wasn't where my interest in the situation rested- on support or agreement with my stance.
You guys are the ones who seem to have to separate people into categories - Democrats and Republicans- and then band together with the ones who agree with you, and laugh at and deride the ones who don't.
To me, all people are people- to be treated with respect. I don't give a crap who they voted for.

So no, I wasn't looking for agreement. I was trying to get an accurate reading of how people of differing backgrounds and ages would view the scenario. I read the scenario off my laptop. The first guy I asked was a mid-fifties white businessman. The second person I asked was my daughter (okay- one American), the third person I asked was a retired maths teacher. The fourth person I asked was one of my daughter's friends.
The fifth person I asked was my neighbor.

Because my theory going into it was that it was less of a political difference and more of an age difference. I assume you and Diest are about twenty years younger than I am. So you guys came up when business was business and not as Foxfyre described - when a man's word was his bond.

Because I can't say that I've ever been made to feel that I was anyone's 'mark'- but you seem totally comfortable looking at people as such, and I assume, being that to a sales person.
I've bought houses and cars and even a business and the people I've always dealt with seemed to believe in their product and care about me as a customer- but again- that's what I expected.

That woman didn't believe in her product (except that maybe it wouldn't shrink in the dryer) and certainly didn't care about her customer- that seemed appalling to me- but you guys are fine with it.
I think the difference in our viewpoint is interesting- I think there must be a reason. And I attribute it to how I saw people interacting in sales and just generally treating each other and how you guys must have in your experience - which has obviously been different from mine.

Because, I can't believe that that's how you want to live among people and that you think it's okay and good business for salespeople to actively lie to you and deride your intelligence behind your back.
Or is it just okay when it happens to other people? In other words if she'd filmed you being duped and showed it on youtube - would you find it as funny?

And I'm relieved to say that my daughter viewed this sort of behavior with as much derision as I did.
She said, 'It's like that woman's a little kid - 'Ha, ha, ha' ...I fooled some people....I'm all that... - let me hurry up and put it on youtube so everyone can see how smart I am.'
That's a seventeen year old talking.

2 Replies

@aidan,

aiden, Your thesis doesn't jive; people sell products because there's a demand for it. As with any marketing scheme, they'll try their best to promote it in every possible way they can. They'll never say "buy my product because it's defective and a piece of junk."

Learning the marketplace through reading, personal experience, and what one hears from friends and family members can warn us about defective/bad/unsafe products. We make judgments every day on whether to buy something based on our personal subjective judgment. Nobody is free from making purchasing mistakes. If they haven't made any mistakes, it's because they don't buy anything.

Car salesmen had a bad reputation for the longest time. There must've been good reason for that.

Some products have experienced good reports from JD Powers, consumer magazines, and other media and friends or family members. It's been shown some years ago that most people take more time buying a shirt than they do a relatively expensive household equipment. Most of us are guilty.

Nobody goes around asking who the owner of a store is before they purchase anything. Many don't even ask where it's made. Some people are prejudiced for many reasons that are irrational to the extreme. Nothing we can do about that, can we?

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@aidan,

I think that part of the problem is that you are getting confused about the situation.

Let's look at Diest' original post -

Quote:

This reminds me of the McCain rally I went to here in northern Virginia. I saw a lady spouting anti-Obama slogans and selling buttons. She got a lot of attention and sold a hell of a lot. I told her I didn't want a button or a shirt. Interestingly, later a friend found a video blogger who had attended the same rallies as me and thought I might appreciate it. When the McCain rally part happened, I saw the guy interview the same woman after the rally. she started the anti-Obama rant and then finally started to laugh and then took off her t-shirt to reveal that she was wearing an Obama shirt under it. she then counted all the money she made that day.

I laughed soooooooo hard. The Dems know business, they know capitalism.

T
K
O

The woman didn't represent herself a McCain staffer or part of his campaign. She didn't say that the money was going to help him. She didn't lead anyone to believe they were donating anything, and she didn't 'upload a video' onto youtube in order to make fun of the rubes.

She was a saleswoman; she had a sales pitch; people bought into it, and she made a ton of money doing it. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

She didn't claim her products would do something that they didn't actually do; she didn't deceive the people who bought stuff from her about the quality of the goods. She just had a different political opinion than the one her job required her to have in order to make sales.

Imagine a waitress at a restaurant. It is her job to sell the food there - even if she herself prefers eating at the restaurant across the street. You are claiming that a salesperson is somehow ethically wrong if they act in a fashion for their job which may not reflect their inner feelings. I think that's a little naive.

Quote:

Because my theory going into it was that it was less of a political difference and more of an age difference. I assume you and Diest are about twenty years younger than I am. So you guys came up when business was business and not as Foxfyre described - when a man's word was his bond.

This is also more than a little naive. Business was never this way. People were verifiably just as false and crooked when you were coming up, as they are today - likely worse. You just have rose-colored glasses on when you think of the past, b/c that's how everyone views their past.

Quote:

Because I can't say that I've ever been made to feel that I was anyone's 'mark'- but you seem totally comfortable looking at people as such, and I assume, being that to a sales person.
I've bought houses and cars and even a business and the people I've always dealt with seemed to believe in their product and care about me as a customer- but again- that's what I expected.

If I end up being a mark to a salesman, it's my own fault. The customer has just as much of a responsibility to engage in due diligence in a transaction as the seller does. Both you and Fox instantly jumped to the conclusion that this lady was mis-representing where the money was going; both Diest and I instantly assumed that she had not. This is likely because we had no reason to assume that the money was going anywhere but in the lady's pocket.

People shouldn't make assumptions. If you think the money is going someplace, and that matters to you - ask where it is going. The truth is that it didn't really matter to the vast majority of her customers, they wanted a product and bought a product and I will bet that they are ALL happy with that product - regardless of what the political beliefs of the seller are.

When it comes to the humorous aspect of it - well. Perhaps if you spent some time around the hateful and borderline racist crowds which regularly appeared at McCain campaign events, you wouldn't feel so bad for these folks. But that's just my opinion.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

From Cyclo's post:

Quote:

Foxfyre described - when a man's word was his bond.

There is a context in which this statement would apply; this is not one of them. There were "no words spoken," just a t-shirt. Anyone can interpret a message on a t-shirt any way they wish; it's not against the law.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Interestingly, later a friend found a video blogger who had attended the same rallies as me and thought I might appreciate it.

Sorry - video blogger - not specifically youtube- but obviously the interview was uploaded- or maybe he just showed it to Diest. Yeah - I was confused about that - I guess I assumed since the guy interviewed her it was shown to a lot of people- not just diest.

Quote:

This is also more than a little naive. Business was never this way. People were verifiably just as false and crooked when you were coming up, as they are today - likely worse. You just have rose-colored glasses on when you think of the past, b/c that's how everyone views their past.

I make business transactions every day- and outside of that-I interact with people every day. I have to say that I'd be appalled if I saw someone behaving like this woman. It's outside of my scope of experience. And if I did see it - I'd tell her to grow up.

No - I've never been to a McCain rally. But I am related to some very wonderful republicans. I think bias against any group is bias against any group. It's wrong to paint any group of people with a broad brush. And anyone who does that shouldn't whine when his or her own 'group' of which they're a member or partial to is maligned and stereotyped.

1 Reply

@parados,

Quote:

Threatening to kill a specific person is something else entirely. If you threatened to kill a passerby, then you could be guilty of a crime.

Why?
Your front porch is not, according to you, a public place?
Therefore if I stand on my porch threatening to kill someone, it cant be a crime.
Unless I act on that threat.

And judging by what and others have said, then I can be naked on my front porch without fear of arrest also.
After all, it is private property, even if it is in public view.

1 Reply

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