blatham
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 02:35 am
"left handed smoke shifter"... that's pretty funny. My first week working in the produce department at Safeway included a multi-store (other produce departments in our town) search for a "counter stretcher"..."Counter stretcher? What's your name, son? Gosh, sorry Bernie, we are using all ours. You'd better go try Overwaitee Foods."

The pundit commentary presently seems to be:
1) unusual and very promising talents
2) he generates once in a generation excitement, including with normal (non-activist) folks
3) untested in a heated campaign environment - how will he respond with the negative tricts that will come, how will he do when bumps appear (none have yet)
4) inexperienced in administration/governance

I'm not bothered by the first three of these, in that I think he'll handle himself exceptionally well through a campaign, as he has to this point. And I'm not at all bothered by the fourth either but that will be the focus of criticism.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 10:06 am
Lots of good stuff here! (I was briefly out of town.)

I think it's very possible that he hits the sweet spot in terms of experience. He's not a rank amateur, a Warren Beatty or something. He's an actual politician with actual experience and a proven ability to reach across the aisle and get things done. Yet, he's new enough that he resonates with the current "fresh start" zeitgeist. I think Phoenix and I'm pretty sure O'Bill have cited the fact that he hasn't been corrupted by Washington yet as part of his appeal.

However, the italicized word is what worries me. We already know that America is currently in "fresh start" mode because of the most recent elections. That tends to curdle if there is a new and credible threat to American security from some source. When people are scared, they're more likely to want to go with experience. A "fresh start" is exhiliarating and hopeful but also intrinsically a risk, a little scary. People need to feel basically secure to take that risk, I think.

I'm not sure who would be the experienced one of the candidates offered up so far in that scenario -- Guiliani has the "been there done that" cred but is mayor really enough experience? McCain, maybe.

Anyway, the point is just that if the next presidential elections were held in a climate very similar to this one, I'd be VERY optimistic about Obama's chances. But we're far enough away that it's impossible to say whether the climate will hold.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 12:06 pm
sozobe, Even if the "climate" changes between now and the next election, the president can recruit experts to help him/her help make the right decision. Bush is one of the worst examples of using expert advisors; he doesn't know how to listen to the important stuff. That won't be a problem with Obama.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 12:11 pm
Of course, and *I* will vote for Obama if he runs. I very much doubt, barring some major revelation, that my opinion will change. It certainly wouldn't change due to a security issue. I trust Obama to do the right thing.

I'm talking about the vast sea of moderates and undecideds, the ones who right now are not sure if they'd vote for him or not, and whose votes he would need to win.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 12:17 pm
sozobe, Nobody has the capacity to figure out the American voters, but Obama brings a "freshness" to our politics that have been missing for too many generations. I suspect he will win many voters when they see and hear him speak. Even the pundits seem excited.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 12:17 pm
sozobe, Nobody has the capacity to figure out the American voters, but Obama brings a "freshness" to our politics that have been missing for too many generations. I suspect he will win many voters when they see and hear him speak. Even the pundits seem excited.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 04:40 pm
Obama's MNF tease video
0 Replies
 
Swimpy
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 05:25 pm
Funny, Roxxxanne.

I am concerned about his experience. I like everything about the man, so far. But, I remember the last time this country voted in a person with no foreign policy experience... Dubya. I don't want to make that mistake again.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 08:01 pm
If you listen to both Obama and Bush speak for 5 minutes and can't figure out why one would be a better wager than the other, then you weren't really listening.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 12 Dec, 2006 08:05 pm
snood, That's a perfect retort.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 06:44 am
... meanwhile, the Republican slime machine continues to crank along -- and CNN's Jeff Greenfield is in on the fun:

Quote:

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD (voice-over): The senator was in New Hampshire over the weekend, sporting what's getting to be the classic Obama look. Call it business casual, a jacket, a collared shirt, but no tie.

It is a look the senator seems to favor. And why not? It is dressy enough to suggest seriousness of purpose, but without the stuffiness of a tie, much less a suit. There is a comfort level here that reflects one of Obama's strongest political assets, a sense that he is comfortable in his own skin, that he knows who he is.

If you want a striking contrast, check out Senator John Kerry as he campaigned back in 2004. He often appeared without a tie, but clad in a blazer, the kind of casual look you see at country clubs and lawn parties in the Hamptons and other toned (ph) locations.

When President Bush wanted in casual mode, he skipped the jacket entirely. Third-generation Skull and Bones at Yale? Don't be silly. Nobody here but us Texas ranchers.

You can think of Bush's apparel as a kind of homage to Ronald Reagan. He may have spent much of his life in Hollywood, but the brush-cutting ranch hand was the image his followers loved, just as the Kennedy sea ferry look provided a striking contrast with, say, Richard Nixon, who apparently couldn't even set out on a beach walk without that "I wish I had spent more time at the office" look.

But, in the case of Obama, he may be walking around with a sartorial time bomb. Ask yourself, is there any other major public figure who dresses the way he does? Why, yes. It is Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who, unlike most of his predecessors, seems to have skipped through enough copies of "GQ" to find the jacket-and-no-tie look agreeable.

And maybe that's not the comparison a possible presidential contender really wants to evoke.


(END VIDEOTAPE)

Source

Doncha just love Greenfield's use of "maybe"? It's so versatile. You know, "maybe" Greenfield rapes babies in his free time. Maybe. Or maybe he doesn't. Don't tet me wrong, I'm not saying anything. Am I?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 07:25 am
thomas

As you know, the right wing propaganda machine is a key interest of mine. I'll make a comment on Greenfield in a minute, but first I want to type in a quote from Larry Tye's book on Edward Bernays, "The Father of Spin". But preceding that, here's Mary Matalin, Republican operative and Cheney's recent communication director touting this book...
Quote:
"For the vast punditocracy who think they created spin and the chattering classes who disdain what they think is a modern phenomenon, Larry Tye provides the un-spun history of the father of it all. A must-read for the aforementioned and wannabe spinmasters."


And, from the book...
Quote:
How must he [Bernays] have felt, then, when he learned in 1933 that Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels was using Crystallizing Public Opinion [written by Bernays, published in 1923] as a basis for his destructive campaign against the Jews of Germany? Bernays heard about it from Karl von Wiegand, foreign correspondent for the Hearst papers, who had visited with Goebbels in Germany and been given a tour of his library. While scholars still debate the extent to which the Nazis used Bernay's works, Goebbels did employ techniques nearly identical to those used by Bernays - skillfully exploiting symbols by making Jews into scapegoats and Hitler into the embodiment of righteousness; manipulating the media by trumpeting Nazi triumphs on the battlefield and hiding their extermination campaigns; and vesting unheard-of power in state propagandists just as Bernays had advised in Crystallizing.
p 111

And Cheney lauds and appears on Fox because...? And Bush was forwarded as "righteous" and "resolute" because...? And bad news from Iraq is smeared as "unpatriotic" and "anti-American" because...? etc etc

Anyway, about Greenfield... I'm somewhat familiar with the fellow and the things that come out of his mouth. He's nothing like a Hannity or a Coulter or Malkin or Krauthammer (unrelenting propagandists). But he does reflect a lot of what we see on CNN and in the other major network political shows...shallow, cliched, talking-point repeating, unresearched/univestigated sound bite "reporting", fill in the 24 hour vacuum with anything regardless of relevance or worth, and please the demographics for advertiser dollars.

I think this absolutely brainless piece by Greenfield (not uncommon for him or CNN generally) is more an instance of this latter dynamic than the first.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 09:12 am
Thomas wrote:
... meanwhile, the Republican slime machine continues to crank along -- and CNN's Jeff Greenfield is in on the fun:

Quote:

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD (voice-over): The senator was in New Hampshire over the weekend, sporting what's getting to be the classic Obama look. Call it business casual, a jacket, a collared shirt, but no tie.

It is a look the senator seems to favor. And why not? It is dressy enough to suggest seriousness of purpose, but without the stuffiness of a tie, much less a suit. There is a comfort level here that reflects one of Obama's strongest political assets, a sense that he is comfortable in his own skin, that he knows who he is.

If you want a striking contrast, check out Senator John Kerry as he campaigned back in 2004. He often appeared without a tie, but clad in a blazer, the kind of casual look you see at country clubs and lawn parties in the Hamptons and other toned (ph) locations.

When President Bush wanted in casual mode, he skipped the jacket entirely. Third-generation Skull and Bones at Yale? Don't be silly. Nobody here but us Texas ranchers.

You can think of Bush's apparel as a kind of homage to Ronald Reagan. He may have spent much of his life in Hollywood, but the brush-cutting ranch hand was the image his followers loved, just as the Kennedy sea ferry look provided a striking contrast with, say, Richard Nixon, who apparently couldn't even set out on a beach walk without that "I wish I had spent more time at the office" look.

But, in the case of Obama, he may be walking around with a sartorial time bomb. Ask yourself, is there any other major public figure who dresses the way he does? Why, yes. It is Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who, unlike most of his predecessors, seems to have skipped through enough copies of "GQ" to find the jacket-and-no-tie look agreeable.

And maybe that's not the comparison a possible presidential contender really wants to evoke.


(END VIDEOTAPE)

Source

Doncha just love Greenfield's use of "maybe"? It's so versatile. You know, "maybe" Greenfield rapes babies in his free time. Maybe. Or maybe he doesn't. Don't tet me wrong, I'm not saying anything. Am I?


Come on Thomas. He made a joke. Greenfield is in no way shape or form part of the "Republican slime machine." He is a liberal Democrat as comfortable on PBS as he is on CNN though I think he is one of the better reporters on both.

In the very same piece he writes about Obama:
Quote:
It is a look the senator seems to favor. And why not? It is dressy enough to suggest seriousness of purpose, but without the stuffiness of a tie, much less a suit. There is a comfort level here that reflects one of Obama's strongest political assets, a sense that he is comfortable in his own skin, that he knows who he is.


The GOP is unlikely to target 'slime' at any of the Dem candidates until the primaries are over. So any 'slime' being slung at this point will most likely originate from other Democrats jockeying for position to make a run for the nomination.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 09:22 am
Jeff Greenfield

""You know," my wife said when she saw the piece, "I wonder if there are people who might think you were serious."

"Not a chance," I replied from my decades of experience. "How could anyone possibly take such analysis seriously? Or consider it a ham-handed effort at character assassination?"

Wife 1, Husband 0."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 10:26 am
Thomas wrote:
... meanwhile, the Republican slime machine continues to crank along -- and CNN's Jeff Greenfield is in on the fun:



You guys are hilarious. Greenfield is part of the Republican slime machine? Have you lost your mind, Thomas? Is this where things are now, criticize Bush all day for anything and everything, but how dare anyone have a commentary on Obama's traits! Yes, nobody should question this man that offers the last greatest hope to save the Democratic Party, the USA, and the world, to restore civility, and world peace, and eliminate all poverty and hate. How dare anyone question this!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 10:40 am
okie wrote:
You guys are hilarious. Greenfield is part of the Republican slime machine? Have you lost your mind, Thomas?

Well, as Blatham convinced me, he's probably just a talking head who mechanically repeats its talking points. Somehow I can't see him connecting, say, Bush or Frist with Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Ladin in that way. Not even in a joke. But if you can point me to such a soundbite, I'll be happy to learn.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 11:23 am
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
You guys are hilarious. Greenfield is part of the Republican slime machine? Have you lost your mind, Thomas?

Well, as Blatham convinced me, he's probably just a talking head who mechanically repeats its talking points. Somehow I can't see him connecting, say, Bush or Frist with Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Ladin in that way. Not even in a joke. But if you can point me to such a soundbite, I'll be happy to learn.


No, he has much more intentionally insulting terminology for them. I don't care if you don't appreciate his attempt at humor. But at least acknowledge that he isn't part of the "Republican slime machine".
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 12:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
You guys are hilarious. Greenfield is part of the Republican slime machine? Have you lost your mind, Thomas?

Well, as Blatham convinced me, he's probably just a talking head who mechanically repeats its talking points. Somehow I can't see him connecting, say, Bush or Frist with Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Ladin in that way. Not even in a joke. But if you can point me to such a soundbite, I'll be happy to learn.


No, he has much more intentionally insulting terminology for them. I don't care if you don't appreciate his attempt at humor. But at least acknowledge that he isn't part of the "Republican slime machine".

He's a useful amplifier for that machine, whether he is consciously a part of it or not. If it makes you happy, I have no problem deferring to Blathams machine expertise and acknowledging that he isn't part of it.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 12:32 pm
Greenfield tries to be wry and clever but he just doesn't quite pull it off. I consider him left of center but the fact is that the corporate media are very careful when it comes to biting the hand that feeds them.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 02:09 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
Greenfield tries to be wry and clever but he just doesn't quite pull it off. I consider him left of center but the fact is that the corporate media are very careful when it comes to biting the hand that feeds them.


If he is left of center, then why not consider him a useful amplifier of the Clinton slime machine? I doubt it, but it bears as much or more credibility as the idea of him being part of the Republican machine.

I have predicted, and I stick by it, that revelations coming out at well timed points in the process on Obama may have the Clinton machine behind it. Of course, they will swear innocence and no connection whatsoever, but just be on the lookout for it. They are highly skilled at such tactics and have good connections in well placed positions in order to pull it off, as long as those willing accomplices do not defect, and I don't see that happening in a big way any time soon.
0 Replies
 
 

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