old europe
 
  1  
Sun 2 Nov, 2008 09:16 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Hitler was a socialist. Facts are stubborn things, oe.


Well, okie, if you have the feeling that you know all these things about German history of the 1920s and 1930s, you're welcome to start a new thread about that. I'd be interested in seeing you argue why Hitler, even though he was a Socialist, continually referred to Bolsheviks, Communists and Socialists as enemies of the state. Or why he got thousands of them rounded up and killed in the Konzentrationslagern. Or why the Nazis blamed the Communists for setting the Reichstag on fire, and, more generally, for conspiring against the German Reich. Or why the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands was the only party in the Reichstag to have voted against the Ermächtigungsgesetz when all other parties to the right of the SPD (with the Communist Party effectively already banned) voted for the Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich. Or why many of the former members of the social democratic, socialist and communist parties continued working illegally to topple the regime, risking their lives in the process.

It would certainly be an interesting topic.
snood
 
  1  
Sun 2 Nov, 2008 09:19 pm
@Butrflynet,
Well, I'd postpone feeling that sense of accomplishment until after the contest is over myself. I really think its wiser not to count any chickens, even though it looks good for our side.
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 2 Nov, 2008 09:22 pm
@sozobe,
soz

That is a great idea! Lola and I will be going in early tuesday morning and spending the full day volunteering, doing whatever tasks are required (likely, door to door for me, I expect). Unfortunately, the forecast here is yukky...high of 51 and rain.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 2 Nov, 2008 09:37 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Good grief, you would think it will be resurrection morning or something?


Of course, okie, the etymology of "messiah" is [Origin: < LL (Vulgate) Messīās < Gk Messās < Heb māshīaḥ lit., anointed < IE māshi, king, IA māsai lit., tall, handsome man of african ancestry]
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  2  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 02:20 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Well, I'd postpone feeling that sense of accomplishment until after the contest is over myself. I really think its wiser not to count any chickens, even though it looks good for our side.


No, no matter how it turns out on Tuesday night, I'll still have that sense of accomplishment. We made Barack Obama the Democratic party's nominee for president of this country and no one can ever take that away from us or him.

Some small part of me really doesn't want him to win because I have a very strong sense of fear for his safety. That small part is cushioned with a healthy sense of that being exactly the reason why he must win.

I'm not taking anything for granted.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 07:35 am
@Diest TKO,
Looking forward to it, Diest!

Eorl, v. nice pun.... Cool

My "omigod tomorrow" is part excitement, part nervousness, and partly just pure disbelief -- this thread has been running for more than two and a half years, and tomorrow -- election day -- is the endpoint of all this discussion and speculation. November 4th, 2008 is the date that has been hovering in the future for so, so long... and now it's tomorrow.

Wow.
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 08:19 am
@sozobe,
I hate to throw a wet towel on all of this, soz, but please take to heart the wisdom of Bill Murray...
"Well, what if there's no tomorrow? There wasn't one today!"
0 Replies
 
Swimpy
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 09:50 am
@sozobe,
Did you get to the rally yesterday, soz?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 10:07 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Hitler was a socialist. Facts are stubborn things, oe.


Like oe, okie, I'm very interested.
[Wrote some year papers about this subject at university (in history as well as political sciences as well as in politics in social work). I'd be very interested to hear some facts which were unknown to the authors and professors (both in England and Germany) during my times at the universities ...]
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 10:09 am
@Swimpy,
I didn't. Sad

I'm kind of sad about it -- last chance. But I was still sick and am trying my damndest to get better (partly so I can volunteer at the polls tomorrow), the kid's last soccer game of the season was at the same time and she really wanted to play, and I just have kind of a hard time justifying going to a FOURTH rally. (Fifth if you include the Michelle-only one.)

But it looks like it was cool, and it was the biggest yet -- ~60,000. (The first one I went to was only a few hundred...)
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:00 am
@sozobe,
Soz, can you believe the end is here?

You're the only one I know on A2K who has supported Obama and thought that he would win as long as I have. Probably longer. In 2006, iirc, you and I were the strongest voices saying he could win. And look at him now!

Cheers, Ma'am

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:05 am
@old europe,
From Wikipedia:

The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party formulated its program in 25 points. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, welfare state spending[9], price and rent controls[9], protectionism[10], progressive taxation and exorbitant corporate taxes[9], racism, collectivism,[11][12] eugenics, antisemitism, opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism,[13][14][12] anti-communism, and totalitarianism.[citation needed]

Nazism was not a monolithic movement, but rather a (mainly German) combination of various ideologies and groups, sparked by anger at the Treaty of Versailles and what was considered to have been a Jewish/communist conspiracy to humiliate Germany at the end of the World War I. The party came to power in 1933 in the aftermath of the Great Depression, and promised a "third way" between capitalism and communism.[15]


You intellectual types that think you and only you understand Hitler, sorry, the rest of us can read history as well.

The above has alot of similarities to the American Democratic Party, oe, in terms of actual policies, and interesting, I think Obama is proposing another approach besides capitalism or communism, a "third way" as mentioned in the above. Communism has been shown to be an utter flop, so dysfuntional dictator mindsets always think they are so much more intelligent, that they can somehow devise another more refined form of communism and call it something else, but guess what, its the same thing rearing its ugly head with a different name. Now we have, hello, Barack Obama, he is going to change the world, he says it all the time. How, nobody knows, but he constantly criticizes corporations and free enterprise, and we know that he would love to institute some kind of centralized control over the country. He won't call it communism, but he plans to be everybody's brothers keeper, by spreading the wealth around. Only he, the messiah, has the answers, he will tell us later, when we need to know it. How he intends to do all of this, I imagine it will be an incremental plan.

I plan to oppose him, for one simple reason, I do not think he is a healthy politican emotionally, he is a messiah complexed man, a self absorbed man, that constantly says he has all the answers. I simply don't believe it, or him. No way. I am not going to be a sucker for Obama.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:07 am
@okie,
Yaknow, when I read stuff like this, I see a bitter, angry old man. His optimism and happiness, and that of his supporters, only reflects how little of that the right wing has these days, and that's why they don't like him - he reveals them.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:09 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Ain't over yet!

But yeah, IF he wins, I'm going to celebrate in part by reading back through this whole thread... and maybe the polls one too... Very Happy

(IF.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:24 am
@blueflame1,
blueflame, Your picture of McCain with Bush really tells who pals around with a terrorist. Bush is responsible for the killing of some 100,000 innocent Iraqis in an illegal war. The McCain-Palin rhetoric about Obama is not only hypocritical but way off the mark - when they themselves associate with the greatest terrorist of our times.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:35 am
@cicerone imposter,
Rubbish. A disgrace too.

And you are not even qualified to arrive at such judgments. And you're very lucky to live in a country that defends your right to spout such nonsense.

You would get locked up in most places for that you ignorant fool.

Are you voting Obama?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:40 am
@okie,
Thanks for the wiki report, okie.

Where actually is mentioned that nationalism is socialism???

Ohhh, I see it now:
"Wikipedia" wrote:
The word mirrors the term Sozi [17], a common and slightly derogatory term for members of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands).[18]
...
17^ The term Sozi is short for the German word Sozialdemokrat, meaning social democrat.
18^ a b Franz H. Mautner (1944). "Nazi und Sozi". Modern Language Notes 59 (2): 93"100.







0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:42 am
@okie,


okie wrote:

The above has alot of similarities to the American Democratic Party, oe, in terms of actual policies,

Wikipedia wrote:
In politics, criticism was directed at the Social Democrats and the Weimar government (Deutsches Reich 1919"1933)
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 11:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
The picture of McCain and Bushie with McCain's birthday cake was taken while Katrina was slamming into New Orleans and Mississippi and people were fighting for their lives.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  3  
Mon 3 Nov, 2008 12:18 pm
Hey Okie, Walter gave you a hint.

You can call Obama a "sozi". It still sounds nasty to you, and you don't look ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
 

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