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Veteran returns medals to Bush

 
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:10 am
Well, duh, brandon, a recent POLL of AMERICAN GI's in IRAQ showed that 72% want OUT. Thought you'd heard about that. Maybe you don't watch the news.

Meaningful enough for you? Do an online search if you want.

What you think are 'logical' points are drivel because they are simply your opinions. I saw no facts.

Did anyone else see any facts?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:16 am
pachelbel wrote:
Well, duh, brandon, a recent POLL of AMERICAN GI's in IRAQ showed that 72% want OUT. Thought you'd heard about that. Maybe you don't watch the news.

Meaningful enough for you? Do an online search if you want.

What you think are 'logical' points are drivel because they are simply your opinions. I saw no facts.

Did anyone else see any facts?

I made the logical point that one veteran's opinion in a group of many thousands proves very little about the statistics of the group. It's not my opinion, it's math. One sample from a population of thousands tells you very little.

As for the number of soldiers in Iraq who want out, I'd have to see the exact question they were asked. I would expect that even most soldiers who do support the war would, nonetheless, wish to leave.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:16 am
Brandon is involved with making bombs for the military so what can one expect. We can't take his bread away, can we?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:18 am
talk72000 wrote:
Brandon is involved with making bombs for the military so what can one expect. We can't take his bread away, can we?

No, I had such a job once long ago.

Frankly, if my main debating technique were avoiding my opponents' arguments and trying to impeach them as individuals, I'd be ashamed of it.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:20 am
How low can Bush numbers go?

MARGARET CARLSON

SYNDICATED COLUMNIST

The latest CBS News poll has support for the president and his vice president dropping to 34 percent and 18 percent, respectively. If you add them together and divide by 2, you get a joint approval rating of 26 percent, 2 points above Richard Nixon's pre-resignation level.

How did George W. Bush drop so low? There are many moving parts: Gas prices are high, pensions are fading and the working class is struggling.

There are events that make it look like the fix is in for those in power: Halliburton caught but not punished for gouging the military, a drug bill benefiting drug companies, a Bush crony who is governor of Mississippi getting Katrina reconstruction money while New Orleans gets stiffed.

And there is, of course, the war.

For all these troubles, and many more, Bush would be doing better if he hadn't lost his ear. Gone is the man who picked up the bullhorn at ground zero, replaced by someone so clueless about the Dubai ports deal that he admitted he was out of the loop on the decision and then stubbornly went on to defend it.

Rovie, you're not doing one heckuva job. The Old Bush would have announced he was going to get to the bottom of the Dubai decision now that he was on the case. He would have feigned alarm, if not felt it, that a company owned by the country that was home to two of the 9/11 hijackers, and that recognized the Taliban but not Israel, would be doing business at six major U.S. ports.

Instead he gave his ace in the hole, 9/11, to others to play, and vowed to use his first veto to bat down any attempt to second-guess him. As his own party balked, he said he would let the 45-day review that the law requires take place after all, so Congress could come to see the facts as he does.

With 70 percent of the populace against the ports deal, the Old Bush wouldn't have let opponents be labeled racist xenophobes who are too unsophisticated to understand the nuances of global trade. I hear you, he would say, and I'm going to get to the bottom of this. Then he could have proceeded to do the deal anyway without the hemorrhaging.

But it's not just ports where Bush has gone tone deaf. He has so lost his touch on Iraq that even the military is turning against him. In a recent Zogby poll, only 23 percent of the troops agree with Bush that we should stay as long as necessary; 72 percent want out in a year.

With that goes one of Bush's most useful lines of defense. Whenever criticized for his policies in Iraq, Bush claimed the troops on the ground were with him, while taking a swipe at the patriotism of critics for undermining the troops.

Indeed, until now, the troops were with him, as you would expect. If you're risking your life in Iraq and have no choice about it, you believe it's for a worthy cause, or go crazy. If a friend dies, you have to believe it wasn't in vain. It's why there are fewer grieving parents against the war and more who cling to the notion that a child died for a good reason.

Our troops realize that the so-called Iraqi forces fighting alongside them aren't rising to the task at hand. No matter what Bush says, the number of battle-ready Iraqi battalions is somewhere around zero. Even among the Iraqi police and troops who can shoot straight and don't run away when attacked, there are imposters and infiltrators.

What's worse, now that sectarian violence has increased, it's hard to tell who's an enemy or a friend. Iraqis who used to live side by side are attacking each other on the basis of sect alone. Americans are in the middle.

Bush's own hand-picked intelligence czar, John Negroponte, predicts that the sect-on-sect violence unleashed in Iraq is so virulent it could inflame the whole Middle East. Instead of spreading democracy in the Middle East by invading Iraq, the U.S. may well be spreading civil war.

It's a mess, and if we're waiting for it to get straightened out before leaving, we are there for many, many years.

But Bush hasn't changed his rhetoric to fit the situation. In an interview on ABC last week, he defaulted to his two bromides on the war -- when Iraqis stand up, we will stand down, and the elections show that democracy is working. He even said, "We're making pretty good progress." With the mosques still burning and a curfew still in effect, that's in the category of Mission Accomplished.

If the military support is softening, it joins Bush's other constituencies in going wobbly. Bush is losing ground among his most loyal constituency, Republicans, where his approval may be lower than 34 percent if two obsessively loyal congressional leaders, Sen. Bill Frist and Rep. Dennis Hastert, fearlessly denouncing his Dubai decision are any indication.

It could be lower in the public at large, as well. I wonder how many of the 34 percent don't want to admit to a stranger on the phone how worried they are. "Fine, he's doing fine. Now don't call me again."

Of course, the religious right, enjoying rapture over Justice Samuel Alito, is still on board. That makes up 20 percent. So I'm going with the unscientific Carlson poll at 26 percent, splitting the difference between Bush's number and Cheney's.

Margaret Carlson is a columnist for Bloomberg News; [email protected].


Brandon better start learning how to make hamburgers for McDonald's.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 06:16 am
Quote:
As Michael Hirsh of Newsweek summed up in a recent column: "How then did we arrive at this day, with anti-American Islamist governments rising in the Mideast, bin Laden sneering at us, Qaeda lieutenants escaping from prison, Iran brazenly enriching uranium, and America as hated and mistrusted as it ever has been? The answer, in a word, is incompetence."


I have nothing to add.

Joe(not a thing)Nation
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:57 am
Brandon, trying to make an argument on threads like this one is pointless. It is designed to show how much feeling people have and how emotional they are about the war. Logic and facts have no place in such a discussion as demonstrated by the silly comments made by the typical posters. I am sure this post will draw the same ire as yours has. They feel their way through life. You can't discuss emotions and feelings, especially with libs as that is what they use to get through life.

This guy wants to give his medals back and make it a public spectacle of it... bully for him.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 01:35 pm
I guess we can now expect something like the equivalent of the "swift-boat" morons coming out and saying he didn't really earn those medals anyway and he's a disgrace to America.

Anon
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:20 pm
Any dictator worth his salt will treat the opposition or whistle blowers this way. First ignore them, then call them unpatriotic. Then make them look unstable or even criminal.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:51 pm
Anon-Voter wrote:
I guess we can now expect something like the equivalent of the "swift-boat" morons coming out and saying he didn't really earn those medals anyway and he's a disgrace to America.

Anon


It didnt take you long to say it,did it?
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:00 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
I guess we can now expect something like the equivalent of the "swift-boat" morons coming out and saying he didn't really earn those medals anyway and he's a disgrace to America.

Anon


It didnt take you long to say it,did it?


You know how they are !! Swift-Boat ShitHeads in action!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 02:03 am
McGentrix wrote:
Brandon, trying to make an argument on threads like this one is pointless. It is designed to show how much feeling people have and how emotional they are about the war. Logic and facts have no place in such a discussion as demonstrated by the silly comments made by the typical posters. I am sure this post will draw the same ire as yours has. They feel their way through life. You can't discuss emotions and feelings, especially with libs as that is what they use to get through life.

This guy wants to give his medals back and make it a public spectacle of it... bully for him.


Oh? Why don't you dazzle us with your 'logic and facts'? Bush's rating is about 30%, the soldiers want out of Iraq (72%). What other facts would you like?

It's pointless to post to people who want to believe Bush is something he is NOT, which is competent. The FACTS speak for themselves. But hey, don't just read posts, read newspapers and watch BBC; something other than the drivel NBC/CNN/Fox put out.

Bush has done irreparable damage to America's image in the world.

If a soldier has the guts to be honest and say he's ashamed of his country, he's more of a man than you. If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. (Robert E. Lee).

I would like to have given those medals back to Bush and offered to pin them right on his ass. Bush hasn't got a clue what a soldier is since his daddy got him out of any active duty, where he might have to put his worthless life on the line. Like the song says "I ain't no senator's son, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one".

Glad we have 'feelings' since you admit you do not. Humans usually do, as opposed to robots who do what they are told without question.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:29 am
Hear, hear
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Mar, 2006 10:25 pm
pachelbel wrote:

Glad we have 'feelings' since you admit you do not. Humans usually do, as opposed to robots who do what they are told without question.

He wasn't saying one shouldn't have feelings. He was saying that one shouldn't use feelings in lieu of logic.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Mar, 2006 10:39 pm
And he was doing it all without facts.
Amazing.
How does a human being utilize feelings without logic? Or logic without feelings? Only a machine can do that. Garbage in, garbage out.
0 Replies
 
 

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