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Who is Jesus?

 
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 05:48 pm
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
talk72000 wrote:
Zarathustra was the originator of Zoroastrianism and he is ancient. So far it doesn't appear to have been borrowed from somewhere else.

Here is a link:

Zarathustra


The Bible teaches that Noah's sons started various religions and carried old teachings with them long before Zoroastrianism.


This is absolutely false. Zoarastrianism is far, far older than Judaism, and became monotheistic before Judaism. There is no evidence that the Jews were monotheists until after the Babylonian captivity, at which time they were exposed to Zoarastrianism, and the Gilgamesh Epic, from which they got the flood story and so much more.

After the retreat of the last major Eurasian glaciation, the water levels of the Black and Caspain seas rose until they became one body of water. This event would have appeared to be a world-wide flood to any people (such as the Aryan tribesmen of the region) who live either in the mountainous region of the Crimean, or the Caucasus Mountains between the two seas. That event is undoubtedly the origin of the flood story, for which there is no evidence in Jewish sources until they had returned from the Babylonian captitivty.

You shouldn't just make sh!t up like that.



Set, you don't consider Adam and Eve monotheistic?

They are a prime example of monotheism, just read the Gilgamesh story and you will read a pagan version of the same story... Zoroaster brought monotheism to his own pagan people... Where did he borrow it from? Adam and Eve started out monotheistic.. Why did Zoroastrian kings come to visit the young child Jesus?

After the garden story in the Bible Adam and Eve realize there is only one "true" God...

Yet in the Gilgamesh story the end result is that after the flood the world is left with many Gods... Stark contrast.. This paganism was indigenous to Zoroaster's people too. The Bible even tells us where modern paganism came from. Cush, Noah's son and Nimrod, Cush's son, gave paganism to the people of Babylon out of spite toward Noah's monotheism...

If the simplest form of all creatures could be a serpent and be believed above God than logically all animals and even the human form could be used to usurp the veneration of the creator. This is the message of Genesis and Noah only takes the animal theme further to contrast the venation of animals and the forces of nature over the peace of God... It was paganism that brought the destruction of the world not God...

The genealogies place Adam and Eve back as far as six thousand years. That is the very earliest date set for Zoroaster. So how does that prove that Zoroaster is far, far older? Most scholars believe Zoroaster was much later.

This is a prime example of you, Set, just believing theologians blindly who are simply speculating over what is written...

I am of the school that the Gilgamesh story is derived from the Genesis story and not the other way around. The Genesis story was an oral saga of the Hebrews long before it was written down by Moses...

I have asked many scholars over time what they base their assumption on as to why the Gilgamesh story outdates that of Genesis and they have no logical reasoning to stand on that I have ever been able to ascertain...Given that the Biblical narrative also comes with a a parallel story that is written in the stars in the form of the zodiac I believe the Hebrews had this story nailed and the Gilgamesh story is an after thought and an outright forgery... The Gilgamesh is a story meant to compete against the monotheistic idea...

The Hebrew story foretells of the Gilgamesh story... Zoroaster was born into a society that had already been paganized... Adam and Eve were the first humans to ever perceive that God was not in nature but created nature... They were created with this ability to see God where all other creatures could not interact with God on such a level... Yet they went back to nature and began to worship it over God... They finally saw the error of their ways...

This is the knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of one true God over many untrue Gods...
This is not to say that some form of nature worship was not part of the "prehistoric" pagan world before. (prehistoric pagan versus modern pagan) Adam and Eve were the first to perceive God. It just means that early prehistoric paganism was crude and rather innocent. Yet the paganism that crept up after Adam and Eve (directly influenced by Noah's fallen sons) and was flourishing at the time of Zoroaster was an organized system of paganism that was replicated in Egypt, Greece Scandinavia and ultimately Rome..

So Zoroaster must have been after Noah's sons if this particular brand of paganism was introduced by Cush and Nimrod and flourishing by the time of Zoroaster in Mesopotamia.

I define this brand of paganism as entire cities over run with it and priestesses and priests temples and statues and likenesses of the sun and other elements and worship of all types of animals and the king of the city considered a "God"... trinitarian father, son and mother images/cults and fertility egg worship.. Fire initiation... All of this cultish influence comes from an obviously twisted view of Genesis and beyond... Modern paganism is not a bunch of cave drawings and a superstitious calendar or spears and solar clocks, followers in black burlap robes. Paganism is an entire culture engulfed in a particular system that is replicated nearly exactly from pagan culture to pagan culture. It was born and began to crop up like a disease in every ancient city.

It is almost that the cities were walled in and new languages created for the people to distance themselves from a nomadic monotheistic beginning... A bureaucratic approach to citizenship.

Cities were the beginning of kings power. How could the king maintain power with God in the way? So if the kings could change the monotheistic beginning of the tribal peoples, they could create a polytheistic system to usurp the rule of the invisible God... So there is your motive too... The Gilgamesh story is clearly a response to monotheism. It was to knock down the omnipotence of God and bring God down from the heavens and to make God likened unto men... ultimately for their own deification and power...

The logic is just not there to put Zoroaster before Eden... Also considering the Hebrew nomadic people had traditions that extended into prehistory Set, you have no compelling case to assert that Zoroaster was far far earlier than Adam and Eve or even Job which also dates back to a story that was tribal and also "monotheistic"...

You have Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, Noah and Job all monotheistic stories dating into prehistory that Zoroaster could have at any time have derived his own ideas from.

The Bible teaches where, when and how paganism came into our modern world. The Bible is privy to credible information that occurred before paganism. Yet, the world of Zoroaster had paganism already within it... the Bible is credibly insightful thus before Zoroaster and leading up to the rise of paganism.

I consider paganism to be a total rip off of the Bible and many biblical scholars see this borrowing from the Bible by paganism even much more clearly than I do...

Even in the patriarchal tribal times of the Hebrews, God was venerated above the patriarch.... Cain and Able gave offerings to a single monotheistic God too...

Zoroaster's "Good Thought" was the same good from evil that earlier Adam and Eve had found. "Good thought, bad thought" or "knowledge of good and evil"? Yet Genesis is a more complete version of Zoroaster's "vision"... simply again reinforcing the idea his "vision" was derived from an earlier Genesis saga...
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:38 pm
Real

You have forgotten one very important fact; the Adam and Eve story is a myth; fiction. It's an allegorical story.

Your trying to mix apples and oranges; real life and myth.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:47 pm
Zoarastrians were not to be considered pagans, despite the idiotic bigotry of RR. Only a self-deluded fool denies that Genesis acknowledges more than one god. Monotheism cannot be definitely attributed to the Jews any earlier than after the Babylonian captivity. Zarathustra lived about 1200 BC, and the Babylonian captivity dates to the mid sixth-century BCE--more than 600 years later.

RR is willing to mke the most idiotic statements about the Jews and their scriptural canon, not because he possesses any historical knowledge, but because he has a stake in promoting the religious beliefs about which he is fanatical.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:05 pm
dyslexia wrote:
who cares? christianty is rooted in Saul/Paul. I've never yet met a christian who actually gives a **** about the Beatitudes.
Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:50 pm
Setanta wrote:
Zoarastrians were not to be considered pagans, despite the idiotic bigotry of RR. Only a self-deluded fool denies that Genesis acknowledges more than one god. Monotheism cannot be definitely attributed to the Jews any earlier than after the Babylonian captivity. Zarathustra lived about 1200 BC, and the Babylonian captivity dates to the mid sixth-century BCE--more than 600 years later.

RR is willing to mke the most idiotic statements about the Jews and their scriptural canon, not because he possesses any historical knowledge, but because he has a stake in promoting the religious beliefs about which he is fanatical.



Set, you make an assumption that the Babylonians introduced Zoroastrianism into Judaism... (I am sure there was some Babylonian influence on Judaism) You don't for once consider though that Zoroaster could have gotten his religion from Adam and Eve? You underestimate the antiquity of the Biblical sagas...

I did not say the Zoroastrians were pagans I am saying according to history Zoroaster lived in and "opposed" a full blown pagan society where the Adam and Eve story is set even before pagan "cities"...

Zoroaster only demonstrates that monotheism was suppressed in urban areas due to underlying religious political antics.

Even 1200 BC leaves several thousand years before you get to 4000 BC when Adam and Eve lived. The Babylonian captivity was not until 580 BC.

I seen no problem with this chronology...

I also do not know how you get many Gods from the Adam and Eve story...

I see a true God and a false god in Eden and that is still technically monotheistic...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:26 pm
Monotheism was imposed on the polytheistic Jews in Babylon.
The Jews got the story of Adam and Eve from the Zoroastrians. See below.

Adam and Eve

The second Genesis creation assumes a waterless waste in which is Eden (Gen 2:8-14), the mythical home of man.

Yehouah Elohim planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:8

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/adamandeve2.jpg

What was so tempting for these two?

It has God making man from clay, like a potter. Here the word used of "forming" man means "moulded", a more appropriate usage for the metaphor employed?-that of a potter shaping clay. The word "adam" appears in Sumerian meaning a lump of clay, "adama". So, Adam is moulded clay brought to life by the breath of God, a metaphor that now is taken by most people as true in that they still hold on to the idea of a soul or spirit?-the word being simply the breath (ruach, pneuma, spiritus) of God. All of these equate with soul, the part of anyone that keeps them alive, and therefore means life. The magicians who call themselves clergymen or ministers contrived to make "life" into a separate entity called "soul", though soul was simply the breath necessary to animal life, and nothing else. Spirit likewise. Soul and spirit seem indistinguishable, but some religions succeeded in distinguishing them, so that now sometimes they seem to be the same and sometimes seem different.

Temple and tomb illustrations in Egypt show the god, Khnum, making men on a potter's wheel. The Babylonians also had the idea that humanity was made of clay, even if the blood of a god (A Heidel, Babylonian Genesis) was needed to animate it, as the breath of God does in the biblical myth. Ninhursag was the divinity that mixed the clay with the blood of the slain god. Berosus had the same story, explaining human reason as being divine becaue Marduk had humanity made from the blood of a dead god mixed with the earth. Adam, from the first of the two Genesis myths is the image of God. In remote parts of their domain, ancient Near Eastern kings would sometimes place a statue, a "selem", an image of themselves, to represent their dominion. "Selem" probably derives from the casting of a shadow by the sun, so is better translated as "shadow". Blood, breath or likeness are all attempts to explain that humans differed from beasts in having about them something of the divine, and this became the divine spark of the Gnostics.

Having formed man, God makes other plants and animals, and finally woman. This is a more folksy, less theological version and was probably among the folklore brought by the colonists from Harran to Palestine. The P source has male and female created together and God "called their name Adam", but the J-E source has the woman created as an afterthought. Babylonia and Persia held women as the equals of men in society, but this myth made her inferior, and this is the one that prevailed, though both existed side-by-side in Genesis. In the same way, the P version has man created along with the animals and so classified with them, but the J-E version puts man in charge of the whole of Nature, an invitation to disaster that we are only beginning to realize. J-E calls the woman "Ishshah" which can only be read as "ruled by Ish" where the man has been called "Ish".


http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife0.jpg

Assyrian Tree of Life
Or is it two trees, a palm with a vine or fig growing around it? Male and Female?

Later, her actions lead Ish to the fall from God's grace. Jews and Christians readily accept that a perfectly good God will allow Eve to be tempted with a temptation He knew she could not resist. Such a God is so obviously not perfectly good, it throws doubt on the story, as well as the religion. Professor Tim West has also pointed out that the author of these passages seems not to realize that God is being cruel in giving these creatures desires that could be fulfilled, then forbidding them to fulfil these desires. West says that to place desire in their heart then to punish them when they seek the happiness that they are driven to by their nature, seems the pinnacle of heartlessness. It is as though God were playing a game, as he did with Job. What kind of God is this? What is the author of Genesis trying to say about God? Is the author of Genesis saying that God is good? Does he love Him, or does he wonder about His cruel pitiless control? Is he telling us that God is evil, cruel, heartless, and spiteful? Is this Creator the Demiurgos, not the High God?

In the story of the Fall, the anti-hero is a serpent which contrives to trick the human pair out of the immortality they seemed until then to have enjoyed. In the epic of Gilgamesh, the hero procures a magical herb called "Man Becomes Young In Old Age", but a snake stole it from him and as it made of sloughed off its skin for the first time. So Gilgamesh also lost the secret of immortality to a snake. The chaos monster was a dragon, and the ancients saw dragons as the same as serpents. Moreover, snakes were popular emblems of gods, particularly chthonian ones. Snakes were associated with death and resurrection from them living in rocks like cairns and tombs, and because they sloughed off their skin, apparently to be born again. Baal was represented by a snake, it seems, and Yehouah also was, if we believe the story of Moses erecting a brass snake for the Israelites to venerate.

The Persian religion was aniconic, and they introduced aniconism to the Jews. The authors of the Jewish scriptures could not therefore allow their Yehouah to be identified with any living image, and they took the chance to identify the old symbol of God with the symbol of chaos, the dragon or serpent, though the snake might originally have been meant as the symbol of immortality. If anyone should suggest thereafter that Yehouah was represented by a snake, the claim could be easily refuted because the snake was the symbol of Chaos, god's enemy.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife2.jpg
Canaanite Tree of Life on Seals

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife4.jpg
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife5.jpg
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife6.jpg
Canaanite Tree of Life

The idea of a tree of life was not original with the Jewish scriptures. In the ANE, a stylized tree was often the center piece of cultic scenes, with animals such as Ibex feeding on it, or people flanking it. That its fruit conferred immortality was also not new. It was not called the tree of life for nothing. Gilgamesh had found a herb with the property of conferring immortality, and something similar is implied in what remains of the parallel myth of Adapa. Pagan religions involving a communion meal imply some divine characteristic conferred by the repast, and immortality seems to be the most likely of them. The fruit of the Tree of Life is the ambrosia of the gods that keeps them perpetually young.

What is unique in Genesis is that there are two trees, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the latter being an apparent refinement of the original which has obscured its meaning, no doubt as intended. Mystery religions have to be interpreted. It does not do for them to be simply understood. Priests might become redundant! Yehouah issues the primeval pair with instructions:

And Yehouah of the gods commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we discover, is the tree in the midst of the garden, but the situation and details of the Tree of Life are not given. The tree in the midst of the garden has not to be eaten, lest they die, so it is a tree of death! In fact, the pair may not even touch the tree in the middle of the garden! The serpent tells Eve something different:

And the serpent, "cunning above every animal of the field which Yehouah of the Gods had made", said to the woman, Dying you shall not die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:4-5 Litv

The woman took and ate the fruit and gave some to her mate.

And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.
Gen 3:7 Litv

Yehouah now explains why he was concerned at the turn of events and why He has to expel the pair from Paradise:

And Yehouah of the Gods said, Behold! The man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever, Yehouah of the Gods sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground out of which he was taken.
Gen 3:22-23 Litv

Tthough God had said they could eat of any tree except the Tree of Knowledge, it turns out they could not eat the fruit of the Tree of Life either. It is called a biblical contradiction. Eternal life was not an attribute of the primaeval pair, and death could not have been the punishment of the sin of disobedience. The story is incoherent.

As it is, when the serpent in the story told the pair they would not die when they ate the fruit, he was telling the truth. It was God who was lying when He said at the outset that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". They did not die on that day. Their punishment was immediate expulsion from the garden, and death at a later date. Adam lived to be 930 years old.

Biblicists say the death spoken of that occurs by eating the fruit is meant metaphorically or poetically, and never meant instant death, as it says. In fact, the text does not literally say that. It says:

For in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.

And the serpent uses the same but negative construction, "dying you shall not die", in reply to Eve. The literal construction indeed seems to mean "being mortal (dying) you shall die". The day that the fruit is eaten is the day the eater becomes mortal, not the day of an immediate death. Even so, the serpent's reply then is "being mortal you shall not die", so death would not be instantaneous as if God had meant it would be. The puzzle remains that God's later reference to the danger that they would eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and acquire immortality means the pair were not immortal anyway.

An explanation might be that, if the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is really a tree of death because death accompanied the knowledge the gods have, then the Tree of Life is its antidote, so that by eating both fruit, the pair can remain immortal but gain the knowledge that gods have. The trouble is that the pair ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and were made mortal, but still seem not to have the knowledge that gods have.

A get out might be that neither death nor knowledge is given instantly but both come slowly, thus yielding the very situation we find in our lives. Then immortality would be necessary for the full knowledge of the gods to be attained. Men only get a little of the way there, but then they die. Immortality would be sufficient for godhood, the knowledge coming through an eternal life of experience. So the only tree necessary was the Tree of Life. The primaeval pair were already gods, but inexperienced ones, and would become fully gods when they had lived for eternity.

The original story was akin to the original good creation in Zoroastrianism which was deliberately spoiled by the Evil Spirit. But here no evil could be a match for God, and so an alternative way of introducing imperfection into the world was needed. The story had been spoilt by the redacter's changes. The aim was to make the sin the one of knowing, and knowing in the Jewish scriptures is to have sexual union! Sexual symbolism adorns the story?-snakes, fig leaves, nakedness, shame. To "know good and evil" is to be sexually active. God speaks (Dt 1:39) of the children, "which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil", as being allowed to enter the promised land, meaning they had not started their sexually active lives. Similarly, Barzillai declares he is a grown man saying:

I am this day fourscore years old, and can I discern between good and evil?
2 Samuel 19:34

By disobeying the high god, they fell from grace meaning they lost their godliness and became mortal. They were deprived of access to the Tree of Life in the garden. Without it, they would die, and that would have been the end of God's little experiment. For it to go on, because the pair were no longer immortal, they had to reproduce, and God presumably had foreseen all this and prepared for it in advance. Here was the reason for the invention of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, primarily meaning the Knowledge of Sexuality. Sex was considered the mark of the Fall from immortality or grace as Christians called it.

The first human couple have to be assumed to have been immortal as long as they did not know about sex, and so they must have been eating the fruit of the tree of life. The purpose of sex is procreation, and immortal beings do not need to procreate, so by chosing sexual activity, the pair had forsaken immortality in favour of procreation.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/treeoflife3.jpg
Worshipping a Serpent instead of a Tree. Or is it Ea, the Water of Life?


Immortality and sexuality are the two main connotations of the snake in mythology and in modern psychology too. Nothing in the story suggests the serpent is the Devil, as believers assume, and the Gnostics thought that the good serpent was warning the pair against the wicked Demiurgos who had made them, and wanted to keep them in ignorance. The Jewish scriptures have Moses putting up a brass serpent for the Israelites to worship, presumably a representation of Yehouah. The Babylonian equivalent of Yehouah or Yah was Ea, their god of water?-a good God?-represented by the zig-zag symbol of rippling water. Do the Gnostics have a point here?

With the story as it is, God tells a lie. The pair will not die when they ate the fruit, just as the serpent said. God apparently does not want the pair to become gods so, he tells them a lie to dissuade them from eating the forbidden fruit. The pair were the "children" of the heavenly "father" and so were supposed to obey Him. A father does not have to explain anything to his children. Traditionally they just have to obey him. Created beings had no right to question their Creator even though he had given them a brain to make them inquisitive!

Let the punishment fit the crime has been a principle of eastern justice since before Hamurabi. What connexion is there between the eating of a fruit, and sorrow in bringing forth children, the punishment inflicted on women ever after? To fit the crime, eating the forbidden fruit must be a metaphor for the sexual act! Conception and childbearing are the consequences of the act forbidden. The writers of this story believed sex was the source of all evil, whence the consequences and the curse on women, and she is then no longer Ishshah but Eve ("Hawwah"). In Hebrew, the name "Hewwah", aspirated, signifies a female serpent (Clement of Alexandria). Eve and the serpent are identified.

We can be certain that nobody was taking notes when Adam and Eve had their adventures in Eden. It must have been written much later, when the Jews were a nation, whether it is considered true by divine inspiration or not. God's promise to Abraham was that he should have seed "numerous as the stars of heaven for multitude", and to support this notion, the descent of Abraham is traced up to the first created man, who is commanded to increase and multiply. Yet to do so, the primæval couple had to disobey God! The condemnation of the primæval act of procreation was contrary to the central idea of patriarchal history.

The whole of the Jewish scriptures highlight the narrow boundary between life and death, in which life is the fullness of order, and death the fullness of chaos. But this dualist conception is blurred to make Yehouah into pure life with death in his own purview, not an opposite. Thereby lies the confusion, for how could a perfectly good and all mighty creator want to create and sustain evil? There is no such problem in the original dualism. The over writing blurs it thoroughly, causing the problem. The proper conception of myth is that it dramatizes a continuous happening. The struggle between order and chaos is continuous. In modern scientific terms, it is enthalpy, the struggle between energy and entropy (H = E - TS). By writing chaos out of the equation, what remains is purely static?-a fixed unmoving state of pre-defined energy unable to change at all. That makes no sense. The monotheistic editor has made nonsense of the original plot.

The fears of the Canaanites, if the scriptures are any criterion, are the sea, the desert and death, all three seen as manacing, ever-present threats of the power of chaos. if God controls them all, then He seems to be sadistic. He could instantly remove all fear, by removing the threats but he does not. It is easier to think that He cannot!


http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/ahrimanzurvan01.jpg
Old Serpent. Ahriman the Zoroastrian Evil Spirit or Satan

Serpent and Satan

The mythological serpent had, at one time, a human form. The serpent of Eden, in this myth of the fall, speaks as a wise friend of the primæval pair, but came to be thought of as the personification of evil. The "old serpent having two feet", of Persian mythology, is Ahriman, the Evil Spirit, whence the association of Satan and the serpent in Jewish and Christian theology. According to the Persian legend in the Bundish, the full version of which will have been among the lost parts of the Zend-Avesta, Meschia and Meschiane, the first man and woman, were seduced by Ahriman, in the form of a serpent, and they committed "in thought, word, and deed, the carnal sin, and thus tainted with original sin all their descendants". Yet, in other traditions, the serpent was the symbol of wisdom and healing, even having that role in the biblical exodus from Egypt.

Originally serpents were neither good nor bad, but, like humans, some were good and some bad. They were the dead ancestors?-often the founders and spiritual guides of the clan?-because snakes liked to hide in the rocky cairns that people built in memory of their dead fathers. Moreover, the serpent was always connected with adoration of the male organ?-the symbol of the Bacchanalia is a serpent?-presumably for its phallic shape, and the latter's role in perpetuating the clan. The serpent thus became connected with founding fathers and gods of wisdom. It was the symbol of Thoth of Egyptian mythology. The third member of the Akkadian triad, Ea (Hea, Hoa), is also symbolized by the serpent, and his titles show him to have been the source of all knowledge (Sir Henry Rawlinson). He stands for life.

Having been cast out of the garden, God places cherubs and a flaming sword in the east of Eden to prevent the naughty couple from returning to Paradise. The popular idea that cherubs are baby angels is chocolate box nonsense. The protecting cherub of Jewish mythology was the sacred bull (Ezek 1 and 10), which symbolized the productive force in nature, and so was associated with sun gods?-the flaming sword. The Persian high god, Ahuramazda, after he had created the heavens and the earth, formed the first creature, Zoroaster's primæval bull (Zend-Avesta). This bull was poisoned by Ahriman, but its seed was carried, by the ox-soul of the dying animal to the moon, "where it is continually purified and fecundated by the warmth and light of the sun, to become the germ of all creatures". Meanwhile, the material prototypes of all living things, including man himself, issued from the body of the bull.

References to the serpent, to the tree of wisdom, and to the bull in the legend of the fall, prove its phallic character, recognized even in the early Christian church (S Jerome, letter on Virginity to Eustochia). The serpent, like the bull, symbolized regeneration, but especially in men?-fecundity in particular?-while the bull stood for regeneration in Nature as a whole?-fecundity in general.

This antagonism was that of Osiris and Seti (Seth), with victory for the god of Nature (Osiris-Apis). The contests between Osiris and Seth, and afterwards that between Horus and Typhon, were important in later Egyptian mythology. Typhon, the adversary of Horus, was a serpent, called Aphophis, or the Giant. He was a later form of the god, Seth. This struggle is depicted in the biblical account of the exodus, when the golden calf (bull) was set up in the Hebrew camp. Moses replaced it by a brass seraph (serpent) to heal the people. It was the emblem of the pharaohs of Egypt, who could heal, but also of the Phœnician healing god, Æsculapius, and sure enough it cured the people of the bites that afflicted them.

Serpents also symbolized eternal life from their habit of sloughing off their skins and looking renewed. Isis (Ish-Ish), the goddess of life and healing, wore a crown of asps, for this reason. The Gorgons supposedly had crowns of serpents, as well as a horrific mask, and were the three aspects of the moon goddess?-which Isis was also?-and the moon held the seeds of life. The Holy Word, Part 2, makes the brass serpent raised up by Moses symbolic of Christ and eternal life:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:14-15

Before the thirteenth century BC, Seth was a great god universally adored throughout Egypt, who conferred life and power on to the sovereigns of the eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties. The greatest pharaoh of the latter dynasty, Sethos, had his name from this god. Then, Seth was cast as an evil demon, and his images and name were obliterated on all the monuments and inscriptions that could be reached. Curiously, he appears in the genealogies of Genesis as the father of Enosh (the man). Here is a relic of another creation story in which Enosh was an Adam created by Seth. The religion of the Israelites favoured the ass, the firstborn of which alone of all animals was allowed to be redeemed, and the red heifer, whose ashes made a "water of separation" for purification from sin. Both of these animals were sacred to Seth (Typhon), the ass being his symbol, and red oxen being at one time sacrificed to him. It suggests Seth was once a god favoured by the Israelites.

The Egyptians celebrate the festivals of Typhon under the form of an ass, which they call Seth.
Epiphanius

When Antiochus Epiphanes entered the temple at Jerusalem, he found in the Holy of Holies a stone figure of a man with a long beard, carrying a book, mounted on an ass (Diodorus). The figure is taken to have been Moses, but, in the Egyptian myth, Seth fled from Egypt riding on a gray ass! A gnostic sect taught that Christ was Seth.

The appearance of the two trees is countered by textual analysis which suggests the original story had only one as in the Persian myth. A Sumerian cylinder seal of about 2000 BC shows a tree guarded by a serpent, with a male and a female figure on either side. The female was reaching out towards the tree. In Hindu mythology, Siva, the Supreme Being, tempted an incarnated Brahma, by dropping from heaven a blossom of the sacred fig-tree. Brahma's wife, Satarupa, instigated him to get the blossom, believing it would make him immortal, and so, divine. He got it, but Siva cursed him, and doomed him to misery and degradation.

So, it was not an apple tree, as we ought to have known because the pair used fig leaves as garments when they realised they were naked. Divers peoples in history have held the fig tree as sacred?-its fruit having the significance of the virgin womb. The banyan (Ficus indicus) is sacred in Africa and Asia. In Egypt, the banyan (Ficus sycomorus) was sacred. A basket of figs was carried in processions for Bacchus. The sacred phallus itself, and the statues of Priapus were made of the wood of the fig-tree (Plutarch). The sycomore fig was also sacred among the Jews.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/adamandeve0.gif

Tree of Knowledge depicted as Death


In the bible, the Tree of Life is distinct from the Tree of Knowledge (Gen 2:9). The fig-tree is much more likely to have been the type of the Tree of Knowledge of the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life stood for the male organ and was the palm tree. The bo-tree (Ficus religiosa) of the Buddhists derived greater sacredness when found encircling the palm?-the bo-tree united in marriage with the palm! The couple could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and so were immortal. It is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge that must not be eaten. The point of the modified myth is simple and direct?-the people could not expect to know all things, and to attempt to do so was a grievous sin that would lose them the chance of immortality. Here was a sort of Uncertainty Principle at work?-the choice was knowledge or immortality, but not both. It is the symbolic expression of the more directly admitted requirement of Christian bishops for unquestioning belief. Knowledge was restricted and no one should want to know too much:

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Dt 29:29

The author has drawn upon old Babylonian legends in which the first man lost his immortality through the guile of those who were cleverer than him, to construct a parable of this passage from Deuteronomy. He could do it because Deuteronomy was the first book written of the Jewish Bible, not Genesis. Its real purpose was to stop people from even thinking about questioning the rule of law. It was God's will and that was it!
Where Was Eden?

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/edenyes02.jpg
Conventional Eden


Where was Eden? It is considered a great mystery, and there are probably a hundred theories about the situation of Eden including Luther's that it was the whole world (ignoring what the bible says, as they do when it suits them). It has recently been put under the waters of the Persian Gulf and scarcely more reasonably in the Shatt-el-Arab, the marshes at the confluence of the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers. How the biblical dry wasteland becomes a wet wasteland is for the biblicists to explain. They will be able to!

Yet Assyriologists and historians of the ancient near east have always known where it is. There are plenty of biblical clues. "Eden" is an Akkadian word "edinu" from the Sumerian word "eden", meaning "plain" or "steppe". Eden is a symbol of great fertility in Isaiah 51:3; Ezekiel 36:35 and Joel 2:3. Both Isaiah and Ezekiel promise that the waste places of Judah will blossom, becoming as Eden. Joel, referring to the locust invasion, indicates that prior to their arrival the land was as Eden but, after their departure, was a desolate place. Eden is also a place whence the merchants of Tyre obtained richly embroidered cloths (Ezek 27:23). Amos 1:5 speaks of Beth Eden in the context of punishments on Syrian nations. In 2 Kings 19:12 and Isaiah 37:12, the "sons of Eden" are mentioned with Gozan, Harran and Rezeph as the name of places conquered by the Assyrians. What could be more specific?

The plain was described as itself waterless but having a source of water nevertheless called, in the various translations of Genesis 2:6, by the Sumerian word "'ed" given as "mist", "flood" and "stream". The same word in Job 36:27 is mainly given as "mist". But, though the passage in Job is highly meteorological, the Septuagint translates the same word in Job as "fountain", suggesting that "spring" is meant. Eden was watered by a "mist" or "stream" or "spring" that "went up" ("Alah") over the ground (Gen 2:6), a description, either of a stream or river flooding, or simply of the welling up of a spring. Either "spring" or "mist" would suit the foothills of the mountains better than an utterly flat arid plain, and since Job is considered to be of Phœnician provenance, this apparently dialect word is also a clue to where Eden was.

"Nahar" is a river, stream, or canal, in each case a permanent watercourse. In its first biblical appearance "nahar" is used for the "rivers" of Eden. The Jewish scriptures (Gen 2:8,10; 4:16) give a clear topography of Eden:

And a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:10

The Garden of Eden is described as having one river, but Eden has four significant rivers heading upstream to their headwaters (heads). The four rivers of Eden include the Tigris (Hiddekel) and the Euphrates. The other two are Pishon and Gihon, both now unknown but Gihon encloses Cush, Tigris feeds Assyria and Pishon encompasses Havilah, a land with gold. Some suggest that "heads" means the opposite, it is "mouths", making the description one of a delta, and therefore impossible.

The Euphrates is called the "nahar Perat" (the word Euphrates is just Greek for "beautiful Parat") or merely "nahar", the River. The two upper tributaries of the Euphrates, the Balikh and the Khabur, may be those called the "two rivers" in the expression "Aram Naharaim"?-"Aram of the Two Rivers", or perhaps just "Aram of the Rivers", because the expression is simply a plural. The promised land stretches from the "river (nahar) of Egypt" to "the great river, the River Euphrates" (Gen 15:18)?-the very extent of the Persian starapy of Abarnahara. Incidentally, the Jordan is never called "nahar". It is always just "The Jordan".

The second-named of the four rivers of Eden is called Gihon (Gen 2:13) said to compass the whole land of Cush. Cush is foolishly thought to be Ethiopia?-a mistake made already in Genesis because Nubia was also known as Cush?-leading "scholars" to claim the Gihon is the Nile, but this Cush is the land of the (Akkadian) "kashshu"?-Kassites. Biblical confusion over Cush has Assyria appearing in two separate groups of people when Genesis comes to dividing them. Babylonia was ruled by a Kassite dynasty for 600 years, but the word seems to have been used of the Indo-European invaders that settled in Iran at an earlier period. The Caspian Sea might be named after them or their god. So Kush is the mountain country north and east of Mesopotamia, or even Mesopotamia itself, and came to mean the lands where Babylonians and Persians lived. The Gihon must have been one of the several rivers which descend from the northern mountains to join the Euphrates river in the Syrian plain.

The Pishon, the first-mentioned of the four rivers that went forth from Eden, flowed through the "Havilah", a land of gold (Gen 2:11). Havilah cannot be identified now but, according to the table of nations in the bible, he was a son of Cush?-again evidently meaning the Kassites not the Ethiopians?-so must have been one of the Indo-European Kassite tribes (Gen 10:7; 1 Chr 1:9). Eratosthenes cited by Strabo lists the Chaulotaioi (a Greek transliteration of Havilah) next to the Nabataeans in describing the route from Petra to Babylon, and Pliny also refers to them as neighbours of the Nabataeans. Havilah is therefore on the caravan route in northwest Arabia, east of the Sinai and Petra and fringing the northern edge of the Syrian desert, by Palmyra. A river that runs from the highlands into the Euphrates is the Khabur, which might have been Pishon, if Khabur could have received its name from Havilah by changes in pronunciation. The Khabur is the river of Gozan (2 Kg 17:6).

Von Soden (The Ancient Orient), discussing this region, notes:

The small water courses, which were so important for farming, were found only in a few places outside of the hill country, such as in the region of the spring-fed sources of the Habur (Khabur).

The "spring-fed sources of the Khabur" take us back to the earlier discussion of springs or mists. These northern steppe lands were such good agricultural land that intensive cultivation permitted the export of surpluses. Salination was not the trouble it was down the rivers.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/harranurfa0.jpg
Eden

Moreover, it was not the flood plains of the Nile, the Tigris and Euphrates, and the Indus that were first used by agriculturalists. The tendency to flood was not easily controlled by primitive people, the dry season was long and harsh, the swamps were malarial, and the rivers were infested with nasty biting animals and snakes. Settlers preferred the higher reaches of large rivers like these. Towards the foothills, the land was watered enough, but the other problems were less serious. This is where any sensible Eden would be, not in the marshes and swamps. Having established themselves in the foothills and high plains, the gardeners and farmers slowly spread downriver, taking their skills with them, and slowly learning how to cope with the difficulties of the flood plains.

All of this suggests that Eden was conceived of as Mesopotamia, properly speaking?-what the Greeks understood as Mesopotamia?-where the two great rivers Tigris and Euphrates run off the Turkish Plateau and several tributaries of the Euphrates similarly arise. The name of this area in the time of the Assyrians was, in Akkadian, Bit Adini or Beth Eden! Bit Adini stretched from the western side of the Euphrates across the northen plain to the Tigris, where the Assyrian cities were. Its main towns were Urfa and Harran!

The plain was fertile, prosperous and welcoming compared with the desiccated hills of Yehud, and the deportees' nostalgia for it gave Eden the meaning of "pleasure" or "delight". In the Septuagint, the Garden of Eden is the Garden of Delight?-Paradise (Rev 2:7). Paradise is a word of Persian origin for a Lord's pleasure land, like a king's hunting park. So, even the biblical Garden of Eden was scarcely just a garden. The Persian word "pardes" from which "paradise" comes, through Greek, is used only three times (Neh 2:8; Song 4:13 and Ecc 2:5) in the Jewish scriptures. It was the archaeologist, George Smith, who discovered the Epic of Gilgamesh, that deciphered cuneiform tablets from the library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh and found that "eden" was the Sumerian word meaning a "plain". He also found that the Sumerian paradise was called Tilmun, a place where lions did not kill and wolves did not carry off sheep until the first human displeased the gods.

There is little mystery over the whereabouts of Eden. The Assyrians named it as Bit Adini, and Bit Adini was in a place that matches as precisely as anyone could expect, from old writings, the region around Harran that the bible suggests the Persian colonists of Yehud came from. The biblicists will not admit it because by so doing they have to accept that the bible is wrong. Eden was not a place remotely distant in time but was known in Assyrian times.

Link: Genesis Myth
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:29 pm
RR your knowledge is very poor and narrow.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:55 pm
talk72000 wrote:
RR your knowledge is very poor and narrow.


I will read what you say then I will comment

It is often the poor and narrow who reveal the truth...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:38 am
Talk,

Nice pictures!

First, I want to humbly thank you and all else who have contributed to this thread for taking the time to read and respond...

I just read the mammoth post of yours...

It is a stunning wealth of information but...

I find several criticisms...

The post has made supposition upon supposition and the logic I can crack quite readily...

Historically what you say is very accurate and what I would call somewhat factual. Yet it is misconstrued.

But the conclusions you draw are immediately to me lacking in fundamental understanding of the religions and the spirit.

Here is an example...

You write about the tree of life...

...call God a liar, imply that he is mischievous and you basically trample all over the scriptures concerning two trees. In the end after you have considered all angles you still provide no real solution...

Well if you had had the solution you would not have had to consider all of the wrong possibilities...

You identify that there were two trees... Well first I would say that if the Bible is all work stolen from all of these religions then it is a patchwork of forgeries and that there should be no real consistency in it's doctrines other than a surface piecing together...

Yet I propose with all confidence that paganism stole all of these things from the scriptures... (Did you ever really give that consideration any honest thought.) What if the Pentateuch came before paganism? That the Pentateuch is as old as (spiritual) knowledge itself? Knowledge does not take time to learn.. if I said that "the house is on fire!" that is knowledge too it only takes a single moment to understand and respond. Only wisdom takes time to learn.. see the cracks in your logic yet you still try to build on the logic anyway...

Another thing... you make a supposition that the JEPD view of the old testament is actually true.. I happen to not believe in the JEPD mangling of the scriptures... There did not have to be different sects to understand God's different names... how foolish...

Moses wrote the Pentateuch...

He compiled it from desert dwelling Hebrew scribes that memorized it from antiquities... It is the Pentateuch that all of these "pagan" religions have in common...

Moses prophesied his own death.

But back to the trees...

After all of your reasonings you do not consider that maybe Adam and Eve were dependant on the earth... Fruit implies sustenance...

Adam and Eve weren't Gods? You are more confused than Eve... They were by all definition, humans...

Here is something in my narrow view I do know...

Adam and Eve were able to freely eat of any tree of the garden (other than the tree of knowledge of good and evil) The tree of life only could harm them IF they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil first.

They were able to eat of the tree of life... you fail to see that once they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil THEN and only then were they restricted from the tree of life... Why didn't you think of that, maybe because all of your pagan sources don't reveal that? Such truth is only found in the Bible and the real patchwork is your pagan sources....

Why? Because God is mean? Because God lies? Because God wanted to make them suffer? (sarcasm)

No,

Because Adam and Eve had now fallen into a state of sin... had God allowed them to eat from the tree of life they would have become trapped ETERNALLY in this sin. "Life" would have become damnation.
Now that is a God who cares about us to have lovingly prevented our own eternal wrath and doom...

Elohim is omnipotent, Jehovah is the limited part of God...

Adam and Eve are not actually dead they sleep awaiting judgment... It was their spirit that they lost due to the condition that God placed upon them... We will see Adam and Eve on judgment day...

So my view is not so narrow....

As for the exact location of Eden.. names and topography are just names and you are just guessing... All we need is another HOLY LAND so people can kill each other over it...

I will believe you when I see the petrified apple core or dried fig with a bite taken out of it next to a dead snake or Adam and Eve did it here carved on a tree...

The Bible says Eden was lost...

The only "holy land" today is real estate inside of an honest charitable heart..

Just because people use these names and attach them to rivers does not mean that they are actually "Eden"... Again the pagans of history taking the Pentateuch and using it to create their own "Eden"... It was the Pentateuch that actually stood at the center of their "mystery" system...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:48 am
I am sorry if I misled you. This is just a post. The link provided shows that Dr. M.D. Magee wrote it. It is askwhy.co.uk. which is an edcational website by Dr. Magee.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:51 am
So Moses wrote his own death scene and events after his death?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:56 am
talk72000 wrote:
I am sorry if I misled you. This is just a post. The link provided shows that Dr. M.D. Magee wrote it. It is askwhy.co.uk. which is an edcational website by Dr. Magee.


You did not mislead me I knew you did not write the post I thought you had written some of it...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:56 am
talk72000 wrote:
So Moses wrote his own death scene and events after his death?


Yep, he was a prophet...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 01:40 am
Let's discuss knowledge of good and evil...

What is it?

I think the monotheism/pagan theory is the most compelling...

I have some other thoughts...

I think it is duality...

Within God there is NO duality...

God is one spirit...

Yet Adam and Eve did not even seem to see their own duality...

They seemed to be more like in and angelic state where they did not feel need or hunger or know death or sorrow...

They never complimented each other in strife.

Oneness and balance in diversity...

I read a Jewish story once about God making two creations that I find quite credible...

It seems that the first creation did not have duality...

The second creation did have duality but the duality was somehow suspended in a type of symbionic oneness at first.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 02:06 am
hephzibah wrote:
RexRed wrote:
talk72000 wrote:
As nonsensical that Jesus is God when he is identified as Jesus Lucifer (Morning Star, Helel or Azalel, a demon)


Yes very true, Jesus "becomes" the morning star that Lucifer once was but lost due to the battle in hell that Jesus and Lucifer fought. Jesus triumphed in that battle.

Jesus not only became the morning star but he also rescued one third of the stars in the heavens that lucifer once controlled. (Michael and Gabriel control the other two thirds)

It is these stars that are placed in the Christian believers who believe upon Christ. These stars are the gifts that God the Giver gives every believer who is born of this spirit.


Wow. What an interesting discussion. Rex, I have never heard anything like this before. I am curious where you got this from?



Here are some scriptures to take a look at...

Re 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Re 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

Re 22:16 - Show Context
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

2Pe 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Ps 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Isa 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Col 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:56 am
Too bad...since this information is supposedly coming from a god...

...the god who made all the stars in our galaxy...and all the galaxies we know about...

...that the god did not mention that the "morning star" is not a star at all.

One would think that worth mentioning...wouldn't one!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:57 am
talk72000 wrote:
So Moses wrote his own death scene and events after his death?


:wink:
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 07:58 am
RexRed wrote:
talk72000 wrote:
So Moses wrote his own death scene and events after his death?


Yep, he was a prophet...


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Twisted Evil Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:16 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Too bad...since this information is supposedly coming from a god...

...the god who made all the stars in our galaxy...and all the galaxies we know about...

...that the god did not mention that the "morning star" is not a star at all.

One would think that worth mentioning...wouldn't one!


Does it really matter if it is a planet or a star? Jesus now controls this immense power...

All heavenly bodies considered were "stars" in those days...

These ancients knew the stars so well they could make a modern day astronomer blush...

Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 01:01 pm
RexRed wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Too bad...since this information is supposedly coming from a god...

...the god who made all the stars in our galaxy...and all the galaxies we know about...

...that the god did not mention that the "morning star" is not a star at all.

One would think that worth mentioning...wouldn't one!


Does it really matter if it is a planet or a star?


Would it matter if Earth were a planet or a star????

Yes...it matters a great deal.



Quote:
Jesus now controls this immense power...


Jesus is dead!


Quote:
All heavenly bodies considered were "stars" in those days...


Not to a God...if there are gods.


Quote:
These ancients knew the stars so well they could make a modern day astronomer blush...


Gimme a break. They "knew" shyt. But I guess when you have been brainwashed as much as you have...stupid statements like that one come easy.
0 Replies
 
 

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