Who is Jesus?

Doctor S is pretty close to my understanding of the situation. Chai Tea, most of my opinions on the subject came from reading years ago. I don't know any sites with substantial information.

http://jesusneverexisted.com/


A little over the top, but contains some good information just the same.

Hey Chai,

There is a documentary out by former Christian fundamentalist Brian Fleming titled, "The God Who Wasn't There." In it Fleming examine the roots of Christianity and comes to some hghly critical conclusions not only of Christianity, but of all religions. I'm scheduled to attend a viewing/discussion of the film in May. I'm not sure how you would get access to a copy.

I found a review


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/god_who_wasnt_there/

Jesus is the greatest story ever written...

Welcome all! Let's talk about this story in detail... I would like to learn from you and maybe I can add a few thing in myself.

All opinions are welcome...

Did Jesus really have to exist to learn from his story?

No, he didn't have to exist in order to learn a lot from the story. I've said many times on this forum that I think it's a shame that the message got lost in the formulation of the dogma and creeds that were to become Christianity. Along the way the story changed from the story of Jesus to the story about Jesus. Paul was the first, but certainly not the only party to alter the focus of the message.

Do you really think Paul altered the focus or did he reveal what had transpired?

Constantine added his own 2 cents as well, and he was a follower of Mithras,
The resemblance between mithras, and his dogma to jesus and his dogma, when viewed in this context provides serious food for thought.

Islam considers Jesus to be one of the great prophets of God and respects him as much as Ibrahim (Abraham), Moses, and Mohammed. (Peace Be Upon Them) This is conformity with the Islamic view of the oneness of God, the oneness of Divine guidance, and the complementary role of the subsequent mission of God's messengers.


The Quran highlights important aspects of Jesus's life; such as-

When the angel said, "Mary, god gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, - high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "Lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will". When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

In a chapter (Surah) entitled "Maryam" (Mary), the Quran tells us how Mary gave birth to her son, and how the people accused her when she brought the child home:

Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'How shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed is He WHO has made me ,wherever I may be; and HE has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive." (Maryam 19:29-33)

The Quran rejects the concept of Trinity God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit - as strongly as it rejects the concept of Jesus as the son of God. This is because GOD IS ONE. Three cannot be one. The Quran addresses Christians in the following verses from the Surah entitled "An-Nisaa" (The Women)

"People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word (Fulfillment of his word (Fulfillment of His command, through the word "Be", for the creation of Jesus) that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him (was given life by God). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian."

The Messiah will not disdain to be a servant of God, neither the Angels who are close to Him. Whosoever disdains to serve Him and walks proud, He will assuredly muster them to Him, all of them.

As for the believers, who do deeds of righteousness, we will pay them their rewards in full, and He will give them more, of His bounty; as for them who disdain and walks proud, then He will punish with a severe punishment, and they shall not find for them, apart from God, a friend or helper." (An-Nissa 4:171-173)

The denial of Jesus divinity (and. for the matter, of Mary's divinity) is presented in the Quran in the form of a dialogue, at the Day of Judgement, between the Almighty Jesus. All the Messengers and their nations will gather before God and He will ask the Messengers how they were received by their people and what they said to them. Among those who will be questioned is Jesus:

"And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"? He said, 'To you be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, you would have known it, knowing what is within my heart, though I do not know your knowledge; you know the things unseen. I only said to them what you did commands me: "Serve God, my God and your God." (Al-Maida 5-116)

In another verse of the Quran, Jesus confirmed the validity of the Torah which was revealed to Moses, and also conveyed the glad tidings of a final Messenger who follow him:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tiding of a Messenger who shall be the praised one." (As-Saff 61:6)

The non-believers plotted - as they would against Mohammed, six centuries later - to kill Jesus. But God had better plan for him and his followers, as the Quran tells us:

"And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said 'Who will be my helpers in the cause of God? The apostles said, 'we are Gods helpers. We believe in God; so bear witness of our submission God, we believe in that you have sent down, and we follow the Messenger. Inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness. 'And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of divisors. When God said, 'Jesus, I will take you to Me and will raise you to Me, and I will purify you (of the falsehoods) of those who do not believe. I will make your followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day."

See, your first statement is the kind of assumptive statement that is just said as fact, and people, many of whom have a tendancy to be sheep, just follow and believe without thinking....it's just been said to them over and over from the cradle, so it's embedded.

Jesus is the greatest story ever written.....not being sarcastic at all, pure truth.....Gone With the Wind and the Bridges of Madison County, along with hundreds of other books I have read, are better storys than the Jesus one. I never held my breath for a moment, or couldn't wait to turn the page, reading the Jesus story.

Since you're using the word story, I'll stick to that....we all know this story, from birth to death to rebirth....and the message it gives that we are all saved, so there's no need to belabor that which we already know....WHAT makes this story so much greater than any other that has been written over time?....including others that discuss spiritual growth and bliss, and including those that are just damn good reads that stay with us for a lifetime?

Your question...Did Jesus really have to exist........

Well, it would be a damn shame if thousands upon thousands of people died horrible deaths over someone who didn't exist.......

If Jesus didn't exist, but was just part of a story, people would have no cause to persecute others for their beliefs, because no one in their right mind could torment someone over their lack of belief in a story.

Doc and J_B, thanks....I think one of those sites was the one I ran across. I'll check it out later....I do remember thinking it was over the top, whatever it was, but was interesting to merit investigating.

RexReed - Why do you feel this is the greated story? Keeping in mind there are other stories that are basically identical as far as someone of a god nature being born of a human, and also beyond the salvation from something thing. Many stories of that nature are around too. What makes this one better?

Just so there is no misunderstanding, and so that this doesn't turn into another unpleasant thread....I'm asking this from an objective view, not meant to advocate belief or not in God....I personally DO believe in a Creator, and at the same time have no truck with those who believe otherwise.

My intent is to hear in an individuals words, with no quotes from religious books what people are thinking as indivduals, using their OWN words.

I think if it can be kept on this level....it might take a little longer for tempers to soar.....because as soon as they do....this thread will become useless.

Please let's keep this civil.

I think it's a matter of intent. I believe Paul was a zealot in whatever he applied himself to. I think he zealously persecuted early Christians and then he zealously applied himself to the spread of what he believed. He was a full advocate of his beliefs and once his beliefs changed his message changed with them. A great salesman if ever there was one. So no, I don't think he intentionally changed the story but I don't think he was selling what transpired either.

Excellent post, Chai.

Bridges of Madison County? Oy.

Why Thank You FranK!!!!!




Dys....yes, I read B of MC way back when....It was at an unfortunate time of the month....I seem to remember buying the book the same time as a pint of Double Chocolate Hagen Daz and a heating pad.

I hope that explains that lapse of reason.

I'd say it's a fifty-fifty shot on whether or not an individusl upon whom the entire Jesus dodge is based ever existed. As for a rabbi named Yeshuah (Joshuah, equals Jesu in Greek, equals Jesus in modern English), d doubt you could have flung a handful of gravel into a crowd in Palestine two thousand years ago and not hit somebody named Yeshuah/Joshuah. Any number of them might have been called, or called themselves, rabbis--teachers.

The doctrine--which has been so submerged both in the canonical scripture and the heirarchy of churches--of spiritual self-awareness derives rather obviously from the Essenes, the dominant mystical sect of Judaism in Palestine at the time. No existing source dates from a time any ealier than more than a century after the death of Saul of Tarsus (aka "St." Paul). The scriptural canon which does descend to us was edited by Origen, Pamphilus and Eusebius, the evidence for which is the documents they wrote identifying themselves and stating that they had "corrected" and edited the "gospels."

Therefore, we don't know if Paul spread a cult in which the reference was to an individual named Joshuah who was considered a rabbi, or if the character of this Joshuah was an avatar of Essene philosphy, created to give the simple minded a focus from which to absorb the core doctrine.

Christians point to the Pauline portions of the "new testament" as evidence that Hey-Zeus actually existed. But there is no more reasonable basis to consider those portions of the scriptural cannon reliable and inerrant than there is for the so-called gospels. Origen was born near the end of the second century of this era, and died in the middle of the third century of this era. He identified thirteen gospels, declaring nine of them to be either spurious or errant and too significantly flawed to be included in the dogmatic canon. His selection of the four gospel canon was ratified by practice, and the work of Phamphilus and Eusebius, who flourished in the century after the death of Origen. Eusebius, Bishop of Cæsarea, eventually presided over the Nicean Council which enrshrined the four gospel canon. Ironically, Eusebius was probably a closet Arian (i.e., someone who, like Arius of Alexandria, denied the divinity of Jesus), but his version of the four gospel canon, and his insistent that all other accounts were spurious, was made "law" at Nicea (325 CE).

Origen was also from Alexandria. In the early part of the current era, Alexandria was an important scholastic center for both Jews and Greeks. It is not to be wondered at the Origen thrived there, nor that Arius prospered there, as well. Origen eventually offended the Bishop of Alexandria, and was banished, going to Cæsarea--which is the obvious reason for the compilation of the great theological library of Pamphilus in Cæsarea, at which Eusebius studied.

No matter how sincere one alleges Origen, Pamphilus and Eusebius to have been, there is a lacunae of more than a century and half between the death of the putative Jesus and the birth of Origen. There is a span of equivalent length from the death of the so-called St. Paul to the time when Origen began his work as a catechist. What had grown up legendarily with regard to the putative Jesus in nearly two centuries will likely never be known.

Therefore, i consider it about a fifty-fifty shot that the individual in question ever existed. I consider the cult from which christianity descends to be the creation of Saul of Tarsus (Paul), and of no one else--there simply is no evidence that anything else occured. The complete lack of contemporary historical evidence means that it is impossible to assert what the cult entailed and what was believed about its putative founder in the first century of this ear--with or without Paul.

One thing is certain. The cult of Jesus which motivates fantasies such as RR is wont to regale us has only existed since the latter part of the nineteenth century. Discarding the unreliable "historical" content of the so-called gospels, and focusing on only the philosophy expounded, it is clear that the ideas attributed to the putative Jesus were not about him, and not about his alleged divinity. Even the perverse and ludicrous setting of the gospels cannot hide that this philosophy relies upon no priesthood, no organized confession, and no reference to liturgical or canon law (it does assume its audience to be confessional Jews, at the least, and therefore assumes the law of the Jews)--it is a call for the individual to find spiritual fulfillment within, and not elsewhere. The modern cult of Jesus is a pathetically absurd perversion of that message, and a palid substitute for the powerful message about self-realization which stands forth from the drek with which christianity has buried that message.

For a minute I was worried.

and your concern about me dys, as usual, warms my heart.



Set....good stuff....I'll read more carefully this evening.

If there was the man, Jesus, he might have been a wise sage, a mystical sage, of sorts. But "the Christ" was the constnruction of Paul. I havn't read Set's post yet. My server keeps skipping out after a few minutes.

As Set pointed out with more class than I can muster...the teachings of Christ were perverted from the beginning.

Paul pissed on the teachings of Jesus.

I've read Paul's letters several times...and he comes away seeming a decent person...a dedicated person...but one with lots of what today we call "issues."

He was dynamo...a combination CEO/PR man wrapped in one package. And he was relentless.

His focus...by any reasonable evaluation...was 180 degrees out of sync with the focus of Jesus.

And probably, that is the reason that today, when you ask a Christian to defend some point in his/her religion with scripture...99% of the time, Paul, not Jesus, is quoted.

In his defense, the letters pretty much paint a picture of a fractured structure...and Paul was in the position of a one-armed paper hanger with the crabs for most of his ministry.

I'm not a big fan of religion in general...or superstition...so I am probably prejudiced...but Christianity as presently packaged and practiced...suck more than gravity.

I know some fine, decent, loving and loveable Christians...but that does not deter from my previously stated opinion.

This is Jesus.

Doesn't he look great in that hat?




(on a side note, I am not sure where this picture came from....it may have been from the thread in which Jesus visited Set and was a not-so-welcome house guest...but either way, it's on my computer and I forget it is there...until my screen saver comes on and I see my pictures flash across the screen....and there, is Jesus in his little cowboy hat. Makes me laugh every time.)

I will be back in a bit, got a busy day planned (and it is 2:10 in the afternoon) will be online later to respond to those posts addressed specifically to me and a few may not addressed to me.

I have not dropped the ball on this one yet there are allot of good points you all have made and I can't wait to respond when I have a bigger space of time.

Keep up the good posts and I will join in soon...

Thanks!

Yea! They caught the church arsonists!

Laterz