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Who is Jesus?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Mar, 2006 01:40 pm
Jesus is a middle class wannabe hipster . . . a weekend punk rocker . . .

http://www.whitedust.demon.co.uk/scabbydog/llcooljesus.jpg
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Mar, 2006 04:30 pm
ebrown_p wrote:

In fact, there wasn't a singular "Jesus story" in the first century... in fact there were many Jesus stories that were quite different... in fact many Christians in the first century didn't believe that Jesus was flesh (in fact in his letters, the apostle Paul takes time to refute these beliefs.


I have heard these in facts before Ebrown,

Here is my take on them...

There was one story in the first century because the apostles traveled. Don't believe what you see in movies...

They went from home to home, town to town, teaching, and spent hours reasoning the scriptures with the local people of influence. The apostles operated a full scale ministry that has never been duplicated since. Christianity spread throughout all of Asia in two years.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Comment:
But it was very fast lived. Error crept into the church even before Paul's lifetime was over.

The letters of Paul are complete and there are none in the canon that are missing. As for the Gnostic scriptures they are the error that crept into the church. They are erroneous to the message taught in the epistles. Most if not all of the Gnostic writings are completely without one shred of truth when it relates to the first century and don't belong in the Bible. They display a lack of spiritual comprehension.

Even the order of Paul's letters in the Bible are divinely inspired. They are placed in the order they properly progress by...

As for Christians not believing Jesus came in the flesh is a prime example as to what I mean by people westernizing the Bible... The people were not wondering is Jesus actually existed... (as a western mind would perceive) They were worshiping him as a God which was something they had grown accustomed to doing... Yet this was not only idolatry but it is what is referred to today as the Trinity... At the time of Jesus many of the Jews had been paganized...

It is actually John not Paul who warns us of the Trinity...

1 John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Comment:
These scriptures are not about whether Jesus existed or not, that is stupid...

They speak of his divinity...

Is Jesus god or man?

The scripture says if you believe he was a man (100% flesh and blood) then you are of God, but if you believe he was a God you are antichrist...

If you want to debate this one with me I have several other scriptures that I can supply to back this up...

The scriptures deal with the antichrist mentioned in the Bible... The antichrist is going to claim he is God, and be followed by lying signs and wonders, the doctrine of the trinity will make that claim believable...

This trinitarian doctrine states that a man (Jesus) was once God... A god/man, that means he was both inside the tent and outside the tent at the same time... IN the flesh... This is what John is warning the people about is that Jesus Christ is not God but he came in the flesh and was merely a man. Even with God being Jesus' father it was all still within the realm of the flesh... God is our father too that does not make us God/men... Yet that is not enough for some theists... They have to deify Christ which only lessens his sacrifice...

If error had not crept into the church there would have only have been possibly three books written and that is Romans, Ephesians and Thessalonians...

All of the other books correct the doctrinal or practical errors that crept into the church due to the inadherence to Romans, Ephesians and Thessalonians...
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Mar, 2006 09:51 pm
bm
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 12:27 am
Raul-7 wrote:
seaglass wrote:
Doesn't the Koran mention Jesus? I believe that he was not considered a saviour but a prophet?


Islam considers Jesus to be one of the great prophets of God and respects him as much as Ibrahim (Abraham), Moses, and Mohammed. (Peace Be Upon Them) This is conformity with the Islamic view of the oneness of God, the oneness of Divine guidance, and the complementary role of the subsequent mission of God's messengers.


The Quran highlights important aspects of Jesus's life; such as-

When the angel said, "Mary, god gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, - high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, "Lord" said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? "Even so, he said "God creates what He will". When he decrees a thing He but say to it, "Be", and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

In a chapter (Surah) entitled "Maryam" (Mary), the Quran tells us how Mary gave birth to her son, and how the people accused her when she brought the child home:

Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'How shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed is He WHO has made me ,wherever I may be; and HE has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive." (Maryam 19:29-33)

The Quran rejects the concept of Trinity God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit - as strongly as it rejects the concept of Jesus as the son of God. This is because GOD IS ONE. Three cannot be one. The Quran addresses Christians in the following verses from the Surah entitled "An-Nisaa" (The Women)

"People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word (Fulfillment of his word (Fulfillment of His command, through the word "Be", for the creation of Jesus) that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him (was given life by God). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian."

The Messiah will not disdain to be a servant of God, neither the Angels who are close to Him. Whosoever disdains to serve Him and walks proud, He will assuredly muster them to Him, all of them.

As for the believers, who do deeds of righteousness, we will pay them their rewards in full, and He will give them more, of His bounty; as for them who disdain and walks proud, then He will punish with a severe punishment, and they shall not find for them, apart from God, a friend or helper." (An-Nissa 4:171-173)

The denial of Jesus divinity (and. for the matter, of Mary's divinity) is presented in the Quran in the form of a dialogue, at the Day of Judgement, between the Almighty Jesus. All the Messengers and their nations will gather before God and He will ask the Messengers how they were received by their people and what they said to them. Among those who will be questioned is Jesus:

"And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"? He said, 'To you be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, you would have known it, knowing what is within my heart, though I do not know your knowledge; you know the things unseen. I only said to them what you did commands me: "Serve God, my God and your God." (Al-Maida 5-116)

In another verse of the Quran, Jesus confirmed the validity of the Torah which was revealed to Moses, and also conveyed the glad tidings of a final Messenger who follow him:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tiding of a Messenger who shall be the praised one." (As-Saff 61:6)

The non-believers plotted - as they would against Mohammed, six centuries later - to kill Jesus. But God had better plan for him and his followers, as the Quran tells us:

"And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said 'Who will be my helpers in the cause of God? The apostles said, 'we are Gods helpers. We believe in God; so bear witness of our submission God, we believe in that you have sent down, and we follow the Messenger. Inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness. 'And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of divisors. When God said, 'Jesus, I will take you to Me and will raise you to Me, and I will purify you (of the falsehoods) of those who do not believe. I will make your followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day."


Raul,

Thank you very much for those beautiful words of the Quran. Praise be to Mohammed for such wisdom concerning Jesus.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 01:03 am
The gospel of Mark was written at the latest 50AD since fragments of the text survive from that date. Late dating the NT has been fashionable for over a century now, but is increasingly difficult to justify.

Despite efforts of some to edit NT books, the text we have today is not representative of their work at all. Their 'corrections' were ashcanned as soon as the ink was dry. Surviving uncials from the early fourth century which were 'corrected' to fit the PC views of the would be editors were in turned 'corrected' over and over again and finally set aside as hopelessly error ridden. This indicates the non acceptance that greeted the editor's views among the church catholic.

These ancient documents probably owe their survival to the fact that they were set aside as unreliable and gathered dust rather than being read to death over the following centuries. Manuscripts that were considered reliable and repeatedly read tended to fall apart due to use and require replacement , therefore later copies.

The textus receptus as we have it today stands on a broad base of textual evidence including Greek mss spanning 1000 years, early translations and quotations of the NT preserved in the citations in the writings of the Church fathers.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 01:04 am
Barbara Thiering suggests that 'pesher' method was used to properly interpret the gospels as the miracles andsayings of Jesus were nonsensical.

Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 01:09 am
talk72000 wrote:
Barbara Thiering suggests that 'pesher' method was used to properly interpret the gospels as the miracles andsayings of Jesus were nonsensical.

Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls


What method should we use to interpret her nonsensical sayings?
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 01:11 am
As nonsensical that Jesus is God when he is identified as Jesus Lucifer (Morning Star, Helel or Azalel, a demon)
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 02:21 am
real life wrote:
The gospel of Mark was written at the latest 50AD since fragments of the text survive from that date. Late dating the NT has been fashionable for over a century now, but is increasingly difficult to justify.

Despite efforts of some to edit NT books, the text we have today is not representative of their work at all. Their 'corrections' were ashcanned as soon as the ink was dry. Surviving uncials from the early fourth century which were 'corrected' to fit the PC views of the would be editors were in turned 'corrected' over and over again and finally set aside as hopelessly error ridden. This indicates the non acceptance that greeted the editor's views among the church catholic.

These ancient documents probably owe their survival to the fact that they were set aside as unreliable and gathered dust rather than being read to death over the following centuries. Manuscripts that were considered reliable and repeatedly read tended to fall apart due to use and require replacement , therefore later copies.

The textus receptus as we have it today stands on a broad base of textual evidence including Greek mss spanning 1000 years, early translations and quotations of the NT preserved in the citations in the writings of the Church fathers.


I am not really that up on how and exactly when the gospels were written or by whom. I depend mostly on what the Epistles say about Jesus and I know the Epistles of Paul are for the most part complete. They relay the message.

One reason for this is that all four gospels end with the death of Jesus. That is it zip end of story. The jewish man is killed and nothing ever comes of it.

Just like the Hollywood movies about Jesus Christ. They all end with him hanging on a cross and then some bright light and the credits roll... fade to black...

Well what was the purpose if he just simply died? Why 4 thousand years of prophecy?

Here is the answer...

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Comment:

CHRIST IN YOU!

Christ was not only risen from the dead but he IS also within those who believe.

Christ in you = Christian

This "mystery" is hidden from the gospels... not a word is breathed of it. (and subsequently Hollywood movies.. and much of the out in the world Christian religion ends at the gospels). They don't know what comes after...

Also the Gospels were addressed to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and not TO but FOR the Christian Church.

Jesus' focus does not shift from Israel until the last paragraphs of the gospels where it then shifts to the world... Yet only the shift is revealed but the details are completely left up to Paul to reveal.

We as spectators are then able to read what Paul says was the result of the Jesus incident (spiritually) and judge for ourselves if his account is valid.

I find the divine stamp upon the words of the apostle Paul. He does uncannily speak with the wisdom of God versus that of the wisdom/image of man that plagued the old testament. He breaks the old testament law and ushers in an administration of grace and unity...

This only proved that Jesus did rise from the dead and that no longer did you have a Peter type who was constantly leaving the ministry to go back to fishing and denying Jesus 3 times twice. You had a Paul type a "zealot" yet it was the Christ in him that was the change that came to the world as a result of the gospels and the resurrection of Christ.

This was the mystery revealed to Paul.

The incident of Pentecost in the book of Acts is not mentioned in the Gospels...

There would have actually not been a Christian doctrine if Paul had not revealed what had transpired spiritually.

The world was not supposed to crucify their Messiah...

Yet within this act revealed a glimpse of God's heart and his own cunning.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

1 Corinthians 2:7+8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Comment:
"The Great Mystery" was not revealed until after the Gospels...

This mystery is "Christ in you"... or Christian

Now, there is not just one Jesus Christ but as many as are born of him now live...

God lives through Christ in us, Christ is the messenger of God
and Paul revealed this mystery which God revealed to him...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 02:31 am
You talk of prophecy there is one here:

Here is an example of the Bible where you can twist it to your liking. Bible thumpers have selected verses to interprete their prejudices for ages.
I like Christians but I have worries about the Bible Thumpers so below is for those Thumpers.

Reference: King James Version

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
a) I will ascend into heaven,
b) I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
c) I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 d)I will ascend above the heights of the clouds:
e)I will be like the most High.


COMPARISON:

OLD TESTAMENT
1) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
(Note: Lucifer is Latin for bright.)

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (How arrogant, naming himself after such a lustrous heavenly body!)

OLD TESTAMENT
2) Isaiah 14:13 I will ascend into heaven


NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 24:51

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
3) Isaiah 14:13
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

The stars of God are the Israelites. (See Numbers 24:17 "...there shall come a Star out of Jacob,...")

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said,
Look now towards heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him,
So shall thy seed be.

Deuteronomy 10:22
Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons, and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his the glory, ye also shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

OLD TESTAMENT
4) Isaiah 14:13
I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north.
[Note:
a) Mt. Ophel, just south of the Temple Mount, has been identified as Mt. Zion. Jesus as a child sat in the Temple.
b) Location of the Last Supper is just north of (Mt. Zion?)]

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 2:46
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Luke 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

5) Isaiah 14:14
I will be like the most High.

God says He is the first and the last in the following passages:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus says that he is the first and the last in the following passages:-

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and untoLaodicea.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

God's garments are sprinkled with blood in the following passage:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Jesus' garment is dipped in blood in the following passage:-

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
In Isaiah, new heavens and new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

NEW TESTAMENT
In Revelation, a new heaven and a new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.

OLD TESTAMENT
God is the bridegroom of His people in the following:-

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus is the bridegroom of his followers in the following:-

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the chilren of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and shall they fast.

Mark 2:19.
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20. But the days will come, while the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34.
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Revelation 19:7.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20:9.
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Isaiah 14:19
"But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,..."
Note: The image of Jesus on the cross confirms it for there is no gravesite of him.

Jesus fits the descriptions of Lucifer almost to a T.


Furthermore he was a politician.

Isaiah 9:
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus failed to ascend "the throne of David", much less "establish" a government "with justice and peace".

Luke 12:
49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Words of an arsonist, certainly not a peacemaker!)
50. Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Jesus denies that he is a peacemaker!)
51. For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. (Jesus divides people)

Matthew 10:4
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace on earth, but a sword.

Jesus was NOT the Prince of Peace but an angry man.

But the Proverbs 22:24-23 warns "Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul."

Matthew 16:
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
18. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mark 8:
27 "...Whom do men say I am? (Jesus does not know what people think of him so he asks his disciples.)
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Jesus did not know what people thought of him nor his disciples thought of him so he enquired. He liked Peter's answer very much and gave him the keys to his church.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me:" (Jesus showed no loyalty to his strongest supporter.)
Jesus went further and mentioned about being killed. Peter instantly rebuked him for such a suggestion and would not have it. Jesus getting angry at Peter for not going along with his sacrificial mission called Peter "Satan". How ephemeral Jesus moods and loyalties were. So, Peter, who is Satan, built Jesus' church!

Luke 12:53
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, the daughter against the mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law. and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. (Fifth Commandment!?)

Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Jesus preached to "dishonor" filial relationship!)



Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Fifth of the Ten Commandments.)

Matthew 4:
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Strange way of fulfilling a law by preaching to break it! Another case of two-faced hypocrisy?)
18. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus contradicted himself with his own words here. He was teaching to break one of the BIG laws, none other than the Ten Commandments. One can only infer that Jesus by his own words would not be called "great" in the "kingdom of heaven".

Isaiah 9:
1. "...and afterwards did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations." (How true, Jesus unleashed such a powerful hatred for his own people that Israel and the Jewish people have not been "more grievously afflicted" than by this same Galilean!)
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelled in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

From Jesus' comments he appeared to be a politician saying different things to different groups to cobble together a coalition.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:02 am
talk72000 wrote:
As nonsensical that Jesus is God when he is identified as Jesus Lucifer (Morning Star, Helel or Azalel, a demon)


Yes very true, Jesus "becomes" the morning star that Lucifer once was but lost due to the battle in hell that Jesus and Lucifer fought. Jesus triumphed in that battle.

Jesus not only became the morning star but he also rescued one third of the stars in the heavens that lucifer once controlled. (Michael and Gabriel control the other two thirds)

It is these stars that are placed in the Christian believers who believe upon Christ. These stars are the gifts that God the Giver gives every believer who is born of this spirit.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 03:35 am
Talk,

Did you assemble the large list of scriptures and the reasonings together yourself that you posted? I am interested in knowing. It was fairy well expressed reasoning though slightly askew..

I answered most of the first part about the Jesus/lucifer connection in the small reply that I posted after.

Yet there are other issues I would like to address. In your list I will pick away at them I think... Or maybe post a big rebuttal.

Jesus did not preexist Bethlehem... The power that he won back from the devil did preexist his birth.

He may have escaped death but he did not escape birth... Smile

Also
The old testament predicted a time when a duty to a "spiritual" brother or sister could possibly trump the duty we have to our earthly family.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 06:15 pm
I did.

Jesus is Lucifer. All that theorizing came as a result of speculation on Lucifer before Jesus being identified as Lucifer.

The Church probably knew the connection and repeatedly diverted attention from it and also placed Revelation into the 'nether' regions of the Canon i.e. the Apocrypha.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 08:30 pm
this is by far the most interesting thread in the R&S forum I have ever read.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 09:47 pm
Since this is about Jesus i thought I would add this without comment.

Quote:
The Book of Bart
In the Bestseller 'Misquoting Jesus,' Agnostic Author Bart Ehrman Picks Apart the Gospels That Made a Disbeliever Out of Him
By Neely Tucker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 5, 2006; D01
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. Where does faith reside? In the soul? The mind, the marrow of the bones?
In the long hours of the night, the voices of the evangelical preachers on the AM dial seem to know. Believe, they say. Then daylight comes and the listeners' questions fade.
Bart Ehrman is a sermon, a parable, but of what? He's a best-selling author, a New Testament expert and perhaps a cautionary tale: the fundamentalist scholar who peered so hard into the origins of Christianity that he lost his faith altogether.
Once he was a seminarian and graduate of the Moody Bible Institute, a pillar of conservative Christianity. Its doctrine states that the Bible "is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit."
But after three decades of research into that divine revelation, Ehrman became an agnostic. What he found in the ancient papyri of the scriptorium was not the greatest story ever told, but the crumbling dust of his own faith.
"Sometimes Christian apologists say there are only three options to who Jesus was: a liar, a lunatic or the Lord," he tells a packed auditorium here at the University of North Carolina, where he chairs the department of religious studies. "But there could be a fourth option -- legend."
Ehrman's latest book, "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why," has become one of the unlikeliest bestsellers of the year. A slender book of textual criticism, currently at No. 16 on the New York Times bestseller list, it casts doubt on any number of New Testament episodes that most Christians take as, well, gospel.
Example: A crowd readies itself to stone an adulterous woman to death. Jesus leans down, doodles in the dust. Says, let the one without sin cast the first stone. The crowd melts away. It's one of the most famous stories in the Bible.
And it's most likely fiction, says Ehrman, seconding other scholars who say scribes added the episode to the biblical canon centuries after the life of Christ.
There are dozens of other examples in "Misquoting Jesus," things that go to the heart of the faith, things that have puzzled scholars for centuries. What actually happened to Jesus of Nazareth, there on the sands of Judea? Was he a small-time Jewish revolutionary or the Son of God? Both? Neither?
These ancient questions have been the guideposts to Ehrman's life. His take on them -- first as devout believer in biblical inerrancy, then as a skeptic who rejects it all -- suggests a demand for black and white in an arena where others see faith, mystery and the far traces of the unknowable.
"I think Bart is writing about his personal journey, about legitimate things that bother him," says Darrell Bock, research professor of New Testament studies at the Dallas Theological Seminary. Like many Christian scholars who have studied the ancient scrolls, Bock says his faith was strengthened by the same process that destroyed Ehrman's.
"Even if I don't have a high-definition photograph of the empty tomb to prove Christ's resurrection, there's the reaction to something after Christ died that is very hard to explain away," Bock says. "There was no resurrection tradition in Jewish theology. Where did it come from? How did these illiterate, impoverished fishermen create such a powerful religion?
"I can appreciate people feel differently. But sometimes I wonder if we are not all guilty of asking the Bible to do too much."
Void in His Heart
On a recent afternoon, Ehrman, 50, pulls off his fedora at the front of an auditorium. Some 350 students are filing in for Religion 22, one of the most popular classes on campus.
His text for today is the Gospel of John.
Thought to be the last written of the four Gospels that form the narrative of Christ's life, death and resurrection, it forms a cornerstone of the Christian faith. The problem is that it is distinctly different from the other three Gospels.
Ehrman looks the professorial part -- a not-too-tall man with a receding hairline, dressed in casual slacks and sport coat over a sweater. His shoes are scuffed. He is energetic and possessed of a gregarious personality that endears him to the student body. (He holds informal office hours on Wednesday nights in a local bar/restaurant.)
But as he paces back and forth across the stage, Ehrman ruthlessly pounces on the anomalies -- in this Gospel, Jesus isn't born in Bethlehem, he doesn't tell any parables, he never casts out a demon, there's no last supper. "None of that is found in John!" The crucifixion stories are different -- in Mark, Jesus is terrified on the cross; in John, he's perfectly composed. Key dates are different. The resurrection stories are different. Ehrman reels them off, rapid-fire, shell bursts against the bulwark of tradition.
"In Matthew, Mark and Luke, you find no trace of Jesus being divine," he says, his voice urgent. "In John, you do." He points out that in the other three books, it takes the disciples nearly half of Christ's ministry to learn who he is. John says no, no, everyone knew it from the beginning. "You shouldn't think something just because you believe it. You need reasons. That applies to religion. That applies to politics . . . just because your parents believe something isn't good enough."
The class files out a few minutes later.
"Most of the students have never heard anything like this in their lives," says Ben White, a graduate student. "For a lot of them, it's very threatening."
Ehrman doesn't mind this. He's often on CNN, the Discovery Channel, National Geographic, a scholar amused by "taking something really complicated and getting a sound bite out of it."
"Misquoting Jesus" is just that to some extent, a book of pop history about biblical misconceptions. The first of his 19 books to be a bestseller, it reads like one of his lectures -- an exploration into how the 27 books of the New Testament came to be cobbled together, a history rich with ecclesiastical politics, incompetent scribes and the difficulties of rendering oral traditions into a written text.
To get an idea of how complicated this can be, consider: Greek, the lingua franca of the day, was written without capitalization or punctuation.
Here, you play biblical translator. Look at this, an example in English, from Ehrman's book:
godisnowhere
Does it say: God is now here.
Or: God is nowhere.
Sorting out these mysteries is the life Ehrman saw for himself since he was an uncertain teenager in Lawrence, Kan. He attended Trinity Episcopal on Vermont Street in Lawrence, but he and his family were casual in their faith. Lost in the middle of the pack in school, Ehrman felt an emptiness settle over him, something that lingered at nights after the lights were out, when the house was quiet.
One afternoon he went to a party at the house of a popular kid. It turned out to be a meeting of a Christian outreach youth group from a nearby college. In private talks, the charismatic young leader of the group told the 15-year-old Ehrman that the emptiness he felt inside was nothing less than his soul crying out for God. He quoted Scripture to prove it.
"Given my reverence for, but ignorance of, the Bible, it all sounded completely convincing," Ehrman writes.
One Saturday morning after having breakfast with the man, Ehrman went home, walked into his room and closed the door. He knelt by his bed and asked the Lord to come into his life.
He rose, and felt better, stronger. "It was your bona fide born-again experience."
The void in his heart was filled. The more he read the Bible, he says, the closer he felt to God.
His devotion soon engulfed him. "I told my friends, family, everyone about Christ," he remembers now. "The study of the Bible was a religious experience. The more you studied the Bible, the more spiritual you were. I memorized large parts of it. It was a spiritual exercise, like meditation."
He soon became a gung-ho Christian, a fundamentalist who believed the Bible contained no mistakes. He converted his family to his new faith. Schoolmates went off to the University of Kansas, but he enrolled in the Moody Bible Institute, an austere interdenominational institution in Chicago that forbade students to go to movies, play cards, dance, or have physical contact with the opposite sex.
It was spiritually thrilling.
For the next 12 years, he studied at Moody, at Wheaton College (another Christian institution in Illinois) and finally at Princeton Theological Seminary. He found he had a gift for languages. His specialty was the ancient texts that tried to explain what actually happened to Jesus Christ, and how the world's largest religion grew into being after his execution.
What he found there began to frighten him.
The Bible simply wasn't error-free. The mistakes grew exponentially as he traced translations through the centuries. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have uncovered more than 200,000 differences in those texts.
"Put it this way: There are more variances among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament," Ehrman summarizes.
Most of these are inconsequential errors in grammar or metaphor. But others are profound. The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the text years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that show Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of Christian theology, and this is the only place where it is spelled out in the entire Bible -- but it appears to have been added to the text centuries later, by an unknown scribe.
For a man who believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God, Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: There are no original manuscripts of the Gospels, of any of the New Testament.
He wrote a tortured paper at Princeton that sought to explain how an episode in Mark might be true, despite clear evidence to the contrary. A professor wrote in the margin:
"Maybe Mark just made a mistake."
As simple as it was, it struck him to the core.
"The evidence for the belief is that if you look closely at the Bible, at the resurrection, you'll find the evidence for it," he says. "For me, that was the seed of its own destruction. It wasn't there. It isn't there."
Doubt about the events in the life of Christ are hardly new. There was never clear agreement in the most ancient texts as to the meaning of Christ's death. But for many Christians, the virgin birth, the passion of Christ, the resurrection on the third day -- these simply have to be facts, or there is no basis for the religion.
"The fundamental truth claims of the biblical record were historical things that were believed to have happened, not 'once upon a time' in a fairy tale or somewhere outside of time and space, but at specific times and places that belonged to the total history of the human race and that could be located on a map," writes Jaroslav Pelikan, one of the field's most respected scholars. "If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be 'null and void.' "
Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was no real historical record. It was, he felt, all incense and myth, told by illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades.
Dark Bubbles
It is a difficult thing to chart the loss of faith.
Where does it go, this belief in things not seen?
Let's look at "In the Beauty of the Lilies." This is John Updike's novel of the fictional Rev. Clarence Arthur Wilmot, a Presbyterian minister, and his loss of faith. Wilmot, beset by doubt one afternoon in the rectory, "felt the last particles of his faith leave him. The sensation was distinct -- a visceral surrender, a set of dark sparkling bubbles escaping upward . . . there was no God, nor should there be."
For Ehrman, the dark sparkling bubbles cascaded out of him while teaching a class at Rutgers University on "The Problem of Suffering in Biblical Traditions." It was the mid-1980s, the Ethiopian famine was in full swing. Starving infants, mass death. Ehrman came to believe that not only was there no evidence of Jesus being divine, but neither was there a God paying attention.
"I just began to lose it," Ehrman says now, in a conversation that stretches from late afternoon into the evening. "It wasn't for lack of trying. But I just couldn't believe there was a God in charge of this mess . . . It was so emotionally charged. This whole business of 'the Bible is your life, and anyone who doesn't believe it is going to roast in hell.' "
He kept teaching, moving to Chapel Hill, kept hanging on to the shreds of belief, but the dark bubbles fled upward. He was a successful author, voted one of the most popular professors on campus, but he awoke one morning seven years ago and found the remnants of faith gone. No bubbles at all. He was soon to marry for the second time and his kids were grown. He stopped going to church.
"I would love for him to be there with me, and sometimes wish it was something we share," says Ehrman's wife, Sarah Beckwith, a professor of medieval literature at Duke University, and an Episcopalian. "But I respect the integrity of decisions he's made, even if I reject the logic by which he reached them."
"Bart was, like a lot of people who were converted to fundamental evangelicalism, converted to the certainty of it all, of having all the answers," says Dale Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University, and a friend of three decades. "When he found out they were lying to him, he just didn't want anything to do with it.
"His wife and I go to Mass sometimes. He never comes with us anymore."
* * *
Life after the loss of faith, even for the deeply religious, is not necessarily a terrible thing.
Ehrman tools home from campus on a recent morning in his BMW convertible. He has a lovely house in the countryside, a wife who loves him and an ever-growing career. He is, he says, a "happy agnostic." That emptiness he felt as a teenager is still there, but he fills it with family, friends, work and the finer things in life.
He thinks that when you die, there are no Pearly Gates.
"I think you just cease to exist, like the mosquito you swatted yesterday."
On this particular morning, he turns his attention to his new book, the story of Judas Iscariot, the man who betrayed Christ. Judas resides, according to Dante, in the ninth circle of hell.
Ehrman's desk is filled with open books. His study is sun-filled, with a glass door giving onto a patio and the gentle pines of the Carolina forests.
Where does faith reside? Does it leave a residue when it is gone?
Bart Ehrman begins writing, the day unfolding, shafts of light falling through the window, the mysteries of the Gospels open before him.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 09:58 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
this is by far the most interesting thread in the R&S forum I have ever read.
When read with extreme caution.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:48 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
this is by far the most interesting thread in the R&S forum I have ever read.


Touch he flame child...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:02 pm
This is the most lessening thread left unaddressed...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:38 am
Okay, I did check that Revelation is not in the Apocrypha either in the Catholic nor Protestant Bible but the weirdness probably discouraged most people from venturing there.

My take on religious texts is one must imagine the times. The times were hard. Men probably took a whole day hunting in hunter gatherer stage. The day lasted as long as the sun was visible. If they created fire to eat or pass the time away they told and retold stories. Those stories became more fantastic as the further they got from the source. The ancestor became a god. Those legends may have been ancient ancestors' glorified stories. When agriculture became the way of life it was still hard but at about this time writing probably came into being as food could be collected and stored and records kept. This writing spread to the legends. The festivals were entertainment as well as worship. The religious texts served served both purpose. There was no cinema or TV then. Notice many religious texts have a setting within a stage with musical notes as in a play. Maybe that could account for the 'magic' in all these stories. I doubt there were any research or investigations as to their veracity. There was no way to know even if stories were made up. So thru thousands of years these writings became sacred. Only with our modern age with logic and scientific knowledge have we realized many of these stories are of a mythological character with probably a grain of truth. The truth might actually be quite humble.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 05:55 am
interesting......as in civil.....filled with research material.....thought provoking....staying on subject.

neo - I don't need to be warned of caution...It's not in my nature to swallow anything hook line and sinker without examining closely, and even then....

I mostly find the directness of this thread resfreshing. Why, I can still remember what the original subject was....

Now THAT's refreshing...

I'm enjoying all this reading, thouroughly.

Rex - I don't understand your last post?
0 Replies
 
 

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