Why does God permit suffering?

Yeah neo !

...and the last time I check in mine ....sheer poetry

My real name is Erick. You are welcome to call me that. Or you can call me The Poet or Undone. I don't care. All I ask is that you show me the same respect you would like me to show you. I am glad you are all well natured, and that is definitely important, but I since I do not know anyone here I don't know whether something like that is said as a friendly comment or out of disrespect. And my reference is to Isa 6:5. As far as your analogy of a husband who beats his wife then brings her flowers, that analogy only works if you can prove God is the one beating you then bringing you the flowers. I think people need to start blaming themselves, instead of God, for the calamity they've brought on themselves. I am sure if we could view all of history, on a DVD, we would see that every calamity in the world can be traced back to something we did as a species.

The Poet AKA Undone AKA Erick

Hi Erick,

Good to meet'cha
Most of us can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'

I'm sorry ThePoet, don't know what's got into me today. I'm not usually the bullying type, especially with the new kid in school....I'm usually quite the opposite. I owe you an apology.

Seriously welcome to A2K.

As to your points, I don't blame any gods for anything as I think it is extremely unlikely that any ever existed.

The problems only arise when you assume one does exist, but chooses to do nothing...then you've got the logical conundra we are dealing with here.

If we could view the DVD of history, you wouldn't see any gods doing anything ever.

Hi Chumly, it is also good to meet you. Eorl, thank you for your apology. I sometimes also get carried away. I am sure I will get to that point here, but I am usually pretty reserved. Anyways, I accept your apology, and thank you for welcoming me to A2K.

As far as taking a lickin', I am quite adept to that. I belonged to another debate forum for a short while, in which the members built a type of community that thrived on the veterans beating down the views and opinions of the New Kids on the Block. Many of the members found that the problem with doing this to me--a supposedly humble Christian--was that I attacked back with a vengeance. The website moderator even wrote me an e-mail, telling me he'd never seen a new guy come out swinging as hard as me. Anyways, I left a couple of weeks later, because I considered the process of trying to beat up on the new kid a shameless way for the members of that community to try to boost their false sense of security by picking on the first target that came along. I definitely want to have good repoire with everyone here, so unless something is said that is outright rude I will assume it is said in good humor.

Eorl, I understand your decision to believe that there is no God. For one reason or another the opposite just never seemed logical to me. Yes, I do agree with macro evolution; yes, I agree that micro evolution is scientifically possible; no, I don't think that is how the universe came about. I had a great biology prof in college who refused to teach evolution as a fact, and instead taught evolution and creation as both theories. I don't know where he stood. He presented the positives and negatives of both, but when it came down to it while I could see a definite shift within species over the millenia I saw too many holes in the system. Anyways, like I said in one other post, that is a discussion for a different board.

For argument's sake, based on the assumption that a G(g)od does exist, it is not that he chooses to do nothing, it is that He does what is in his job description to do. Imagine that next year the Chargers and the Giants go to the superbowl. If I pray that the Charger's will win the superbowl (They won the superbowl the day they took down the Colts or at least the earned NFL bragging rights of being the true best) and some one else prays that the Giants win the superbowl, only one of us will see his prayers answered positively. Of course, the problem with this is that God didn't answer either person's prayer, instead he just let the two teams meet and do their thing. No I can't prove this, but unless someone can provide me with substantial verses to prove me wrong I will assume quite arrogantly that I am right. Now, of course, the person who prayed for his team to win will assume that his prayers were answered, and the other will be angry because God did not answer his. But of course God just let nature take its course. One time, while in a group of Christian friends, I drew a ton of blank stares when I commented out of the blue that Christians pray too much.

Anyways, my point is that it is not that God does nothng, it is that sometimes he let's nature take its course. I am almost 30 years old and I am growing so tired of my mother calling me every single day. I am growing so tired of it that I am on the verge of changing my phone number (Please I appreciate every mothers' sentiments, but I ask for no advice on this one). Imagine if God were like that. Imagine if rather than nature taking its course he held our hand every step of the way. Imagine if rather than me going through brain surgery at the age of 7 and almost dying, God had just untagled all of those messed up blood vessels. Imagine if he had somehow stopped me, when I was ten, from falling onto a jagged rock, piercing my skull, and almost becoming retarded. Imagine if he had somehow stopped me from slamming into the back of a mini van at 70 MPH. Imagine if he had held my hand through everything and stopped all of the crap that had happened to me over the years. I wouldn't be the man I am. I wouldn't have the drive I have. I know that on a Katrina level , where people die, it is hard to think of it like that. But imagine if Katrina hadn't happened (which was a result of human error not God error). A much bigger hurricane could have ripped through New Orleans. I have learned from the good and even more the bad, throughout my life. I think the problem isn't that pain exists; I think the problem is that we just don't learn from it. I think the problem is that we sit in a corner and keep blaming God instead of blaming ourselves and doing something about it.

I think I'll just call myself

The.......

Well you obviously have had a difficult child hood Erik and I wish you well, but I'm not alone in detecting some arrogance...

Do you think surviving the difficulties you have experienced makes you in some way special? That you have a deeper understanding of life and death and maybe God than others have?

This is one of the names of Allah:

Clearly Allah will not just let the Chargers and the Giants battle it out. God is a fan of the Giants, or the Chargers, and you wont know which until after the game.

I'm not making a criticism of you Erik, merely taking your example to illustrate the fatuous argument of the muslims.

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There is of course a simple experiment that can determine the superiority of any particular religion. Say Judaism Christianity and Islam. The congregations at all three are told to buy equal numbers of lottery tickets on Friday Saturday and Sunday, for the Wednesday night draw. Monday and Tuesday is spent praying (making sacrifice etc etc whatever they do to appease their respective Dieties) for a win. Thursdays winnings are counted and low and behold none of them win any more than could be accounted for by sheer chance. Any difference is easily accounted for by being within the limits of statistical error. So next week the priest iman and rabbi tell their congregations to PRAY HARDER...

but the wise man understands the power of prayer is a myth.

Allow me to attempt an allegory here.

Those that are so inclined to worship God refer to him as their Lord. This is not some meaningless honorific that they're giving him. In recent past the Lord, Duke, whatever of a particular section of a kingdom was responsible for protecting it's citizens (or the king's taxes, but that muddles the allegory a bit.) The people gave thanks to this Lord because they knew that if bandits were reported in the area, their Lordship would send soldiers out to deal with them.

My question to you would be, where would the Lord be if he just let the bandits come in and rape, pillage, and do other banditly things to his people and then merely told them that he's allowing it because it'll build character?

I am of the opinion that a Lord that ignores his people's pleas for help is no sort of Lord, and completely undeserving of our adulations. What's your opinion on this?

No doubt it seems like an intolerable wait to us as it must even to those in Jesus time. But there is much written in the book of Daniel regarding the promise of God: "Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end." (Daniel 8:19)

For what it's worth, the NT gives this insight:

"However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief . . ." (2Peter 3: 9-10)

I am running late for work, so I will have to respond to all comments later. Except for one. I really do not appreciate being called arrogant. I just know that I have studied theology and that the Bible does not tell us to pray for what color tie to wear. That does not make me arrogant; that just makes me right. Once again I do not appreciate being called arrogant. It is like assuming that yoiu know what Tiaramisu tastes like just because someone tells you it tastes like a brownie with caramel. You don't know me, so don't assess me. And once again being right, and sticking to your rightness does not make you arrogant.

The..........

With all due respect, deal with it.

You even labeled yourself as such:

true but there is a certain way of arguing your case which comes across as being a*******

Question,

Thank you for your allegory pertaining to Lords and Dukes. My answer to that would be to give the analogy of the legend of Robin Hood. King Richard left his kingdom in order to fight for something good, in order to preserve the greater good. His brother John took over and made a mess of things. God has not left us alone, but the Bible does say He is preparing a place for us. Perhaps that is the greater good. Perhaps He could not prepare that place for us if he played cosmic babysitter. I believe that part of preparing that place for us is to determine which ones of us will seek it with all of their hearts. Yeah, I know the question--why would God send an innocent person to Hell? My question is, why would God spend eternity with someone whose just going to spend eternity blaming him for everything or trying to prove he doesn't exist?



Once again, thanks for the allegorical question.


The.......

Question,

Thank you for your allegory pertaining to Lords and Dukes. My answer to that would be to give the analogy of the legend of Robin Hood. King Richard left his kingdom in order to fight for something good, in order to preserve the greater good. His brother John took over and made a mess of things. God has not left us alone, but the Bible does say He is preparing a place for us. Perhaps that is the greater good. Perhaps He could not prepare that place for us if he played cosmic babysitter. I believe that part of preparing that place for us is to determine which ones of us will seek it with all of their hearts. Yeah, I know the question--why would God send an innocent person to Hell? My question is, why would God spend eternity with someone whose just going to spend eternity blaming him for everything or trying to prove he doesn't exist?



Once again, thanks for the allegorical question.


The.......

Question,

Arrogant is an adjective; arrogantly is an adverb. I did not call myself arrogant; I implied that I was sticking to my rightness quite arrogantly. Though, after researching the word, I will admit that perhaps a better word would have been "confidently" or "adhamantly."

The.........

Words makes all the difference in communication, as you can see. We all make our mistakes.

Steve,

If anything I say in this thread comes across as being arrogant, that is not my intention. I will not apologize for what I say or have said, but I will say that if you or anyone else would like clarification I will be more than happy to give it. Yes, I do speak with confidence, but please don't mistake my confidence for arrogance.


The........

I copies and pasted a forward a friend sent to me.

A young man was getting ready to graduate from college. For many months he had admired a beautiful sports car in a dealer's showroom, and knowing his father could well afford it, he told him that was all he wanted. As Graduation Day approached, the young man awaited signs that his father had purchased the car.

Finally, on the morning of his graduation, his father called him into his private study. His father told him how proud he was to have such a fine son, and told him how much he loved him. He handed his son a beautifully wrapped gift box. Curious, but somewhat Disappointed, the young man opened the box and found a lovely, leather-bound Bible, with the young man's name embossed in gold. Angrily, he raised his voice to his father and said, "With all your money you give me a Bible? And stormed out of the house, leaving the Bible.

Many years passed and the young man was very successful in business. He had a beautiful home and wonderful family, but realized his father was very old, and thought perhaps he should go to him. He had not seen him since that graduation day. Before he could make arrangements, he received a telegram telling him his father had passed away, and willed all of his possessions to his son. He needed to come home immediately and take care of things.

When he arrived at his father's house, sudden sadness and regret filled his heart. He began to search through his father's important papers and saw the still new Bible, just as he had left it years ago. With tears, he opened the Bible and began to turn the pages. His father had carefully underlined a verse, Matt 7:11, "And if ye, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Heavenly
father which is in heaven,give to those who ask Him?" As he read those words, a car key dropped from the back of the Bible. It had a tag with the dealer's name, the same dealer who had the sports car he had desired. On the tag was the date of his graduation, and the words...PAID IN FULL.

How many times do we miss God's blessings because they are not packaged as we expected? I trust you enjoyed this. Pass it on to others. Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; but remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for...

IF YOUR GIFT IS NOT PACKED THE WAY YOU WANT IT, IT'S BECAUSE IT IS
BETTER PACKED THAT WAY! ALWAYS APPRECIATE LITTLE THINGS; THEY USUALLY LEAD YOU TO ATTACHMENTS!

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Here is also a blog I wrote about a month ago...........

The Nature of the Problem of Pain


I believe God feels pain. I don't mean your pain or my pain. I mean his own pain. I believe any pain we go through cannot compare to the pain of God. I believe God suffers such astronomical pain that the tsunami, katrina, 9-11, and the sum of all human pain could not compare with one moment of the pain of God. I believe God feels pain, but not as you or I feel pain. Rather the pain he feels makes him the God he is. I believe that like an oyster the beauty of God allows his love for us to cause that pain to become a pearl.

God tells Eve he will greatly multiply her pain in childbirth (Gen 3:16). Since God tells Eve that he will multiply her pain, and since only something that already existed can be multiplied, then pain must have existed before the fall. Since pain existed before the fall, and we were created in the image of God, then God feels pain. And just as our capacity to love, be good, be kind, and show any other emotion that is characteristic of God cannot compare to the shadow of His holiness, then our pain cannot compare with the shadow of God's pain. And since the sum all human love cannot compare with one moment of God's love, the sum of all human pain cannot compare with one moment of God's pain.

In his book "The Problem of Pain" C.S. Lewis never gives a clear answer to the Problem of Pain, because he never had one. In order to understand the answer to a problem it is necessary to understand the nature of that problem. In order to understand that 2+3=5 a person must understand the symbolism that leads to the conclusion. If I ask you for the mathematical equivalent of 2+3 apples, but you do not understand the nature of numbers or the plus sign, then you cannot solve the problem, and therefore you cannot know that I want 5 apples. In the same way the Problem of Pain cannot be solved, because in order to solve the Problem of Pain we must first understand the nature of God's Pain. If we replace our pain for X, and call God's pain XInfinity, we cannot solve the problem of pain, because in order to do so would require us to understand the nature of Infinity. It is selfish to rejoice at such emotions as love, kindness, and goodness, without understanding the nature of these emotions, as they apply to God, and yet expect that we can solve the problem of pain without understanding the pain of God.

The only attribute of God that is spoken of angelically, in both the old and new testaments, and exponentially is His holiness. God is holy. All other attributes of God are encompassed within His holiness. A person must understand this in order to grasp the nature of God. He is first and foremost holy. All other attributes are manifestations of his holiness. It is hard to attribute such an emotion as pain to God. It is even harder to imagine that the pain of God--a pain astronomically greater than the sum of all human suffering--is an attribute of his Holiness.



My question--why do we consider pain a problem, yet we consider love a gift, if both are manifestations of God's abundant holiness?


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I view pain as a flashlight in the hands of a searcher who has found a missing person in the dark woods. Yes, when that light shines into the eyes of the missing person, it will cause pain, but that missing person will rejoice so greatly that they are found that they won't give a second thought to the momentary blinding light.

Our world has been darkened, and the darkness in our hearts requires has required God to send a light into the world. Sometimes the presence of that light in our eyes will cause momentary pain, but maybe if you open your eyes and accept the momentary blindness you will receive the greater key.
Wait, let me save some one the time of having to post what I already know some one is going to say.......


Nice fairy tale. I think I'll tell it to my kids as a bedtime story.



The...............

I am suffering. . .

Are you suggesting that God may not currently be in charge, or am I missing a point?



I was rather under the impression that God could do anything he wanted. However, not knowing the mind of God (if such exists) I suppose anything is a possibility.



So in essence you believe that life is little more than a proving grounds, a measuring stick so that God isn't forced to spend eternity with people that don't fit his clique?

Allow me to pose another question if I may.

If God is currently preoccupied with preparing a place for those lucky few that actually do measure up, what point is there in prayer? He's obviously closed shop to take care of some things . . .why is prayer stressed so heavily if there's no chance that he'll be around to act on it? Is that just another form of 'measurement'?

Thanks for the dialogue.