Bows and Arrows

Paaskynen wrote:

Green Witch wrote:
That's certainly true of the cross bow. It was invented separately in China and Europe in the same century.

Historians say that "the time was ripe" for the invention. It is easy to see where Rupert Sheldrake came up with his idea of morphogenetic fields.

On the other hands there were also inventions maded that were lost for a long while and then re-invented, like many things from the ancient era (think about concrete, automatic sliding doors and coin operated devices, etc.)

The crossbow was never the ultimate weapon in war. Stored energy in a bow is measured in foot pounds as usual, and the crossbow has the pounds but not the feet. A longbow or turko-mongol composite bow had more power, more range, and ten times the rate of fire.

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True, gunga, but if you have to train up an army of farmers in a hurry, the crossbow is easier to learn.

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Which was precisely the point in the Warring States period and the Autumn period in Chinese history.

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oh

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Check out those periods in Chinese history, as well as the Three Kingdoms period. All tolled, millions of Chinese were conscripted and served in somebody's army at some time. The scale of armies and battles was exagerated, which is common enough in history. Nevertheless, these were probably the largest wars in ancient history, lasting over many generations.

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roger wrote:

True, gunga, but if you have to train up an army of farmers in a hurry, the crossbow is easier to learn.

The basic reality is that the Turko-Mongol composite bow was the ultimate weapon of war for the thousand year period between the end of the Western Roman empire and the development of workable blackpowder weapons and armies trained in their use. Europe was at a military disadvantage versus the East for that entire time.

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Unsophisticated edged and projectile weapons didn't do all that badly against Her Majesty's 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot at Isandhlwana ... some half-millenium after gunpowder weapons appeared in Europe.

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Ever deal with bowstickarchery.com, gunga? A dandy vendor if you want to build your own, or just want to do the finishing touches yourself.

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Thanks for the info, but it's been at least 20 years since I've touched anything other than compound bows. If you really want to get an idea of what can be done with a longbow however, a number of Howard Hill's old videos have recently been made into DVDs, and you can find them for sale on Ebay.

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Militarily, the Anglo-Saxons did not use missile weapons. They only used the bow for hunting

They regularly used bows in war. There are many illustrations in Saxon art and instances in Saxon literature of bows being used in war. E.g. these quotes from The Battle of Maldon:
'And yet no warrior could injure another, except by the flight of a feathered arrow.'
'Bowstrings were busy, shield parried point.'
'The hostage helped them with all his might - his name was Æscferth, the son of Ecglaf; he came of a brave family in Northumbria. He did not flinch in the battle-play but shot his arrows as fast as he could. Sometimes he hit a shield, sometimes he pierced a man, again and again he inflicted wounds for as long as he could hold a bow in his hands.'

Incidentally, don't you consider the spear to be a missile weapon?

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- and they most certainly did not use the long bow, which was introduced into England from South Wales

Not true. Saxon art shows longbows more often than it shows short ones, and actual archaeological finds of longbows are known from Viking sites at Dublin, Birka & Hedeby, so it was certainly not only the Welsh who knew the longbow.

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The Robin Hood story as it is known today was created by Walter Scott in the novel Ivanhoe. There was indeed a Robin Hood, and his tombstone can be seen to this day. However, he died in 1251--which is more than fifty years after Richard Lionheart died, pointing again to the implausibility of the story. Whether Robin Hood, or The Odyssey, or The Song of the South, it is horseshit to present such tales as historical truth.

But nobody does, for heaven's sake. And you're the only person I know who thinks that tombstone is genuine!

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Small quibble on a side issue:

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Yes, i consider both The Odyssey and The Song of the South (the latter being the origin of "Br'er Fox") to be horseshit--if presented as literal truth.

Walt Disney invented Uncle Remus, but not Br'er Rabbit and company. Br'er Rabbit is a classic example of The Trickster with roots in both African and American Indian mythology.

In English tradition and idiom The Fox is sage, canny and triumphant.

In slave folklore the role is much less glorious.

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Syntinen, if you assert that the Saxons used long bows, something which i do not believe to be true, i'll be happy to stipulate that. That does not alter that the Robin Hood story as now known was created by Walter Scott in Ivanhoe. That does not alter that the long bow was introduced to the English army by Edward when the Welsh of Powys allied with him to defeat Llewelyn ap Griffith.

I don't claim the Robin Hood tombstone is authentic, and don't really care if it is. I am pointing out that if it were, a date of death of 1251 makes it highly improbable that he had anything to do with Richard I, as claimed in Ivanhoe, given that Richard died in 1199. It's possible, but improbable.

I did not state that the Welsh invented the long bow, i only pointed out that in the 13th century, its use was first noted by chroniclers by the Welsh of South Wales in general, and Powys in particular. It is noteworthy that you claim the Anglo-Saxons used the long bow, but then mention Viking archaeological sites. Certainly long bows were used in many other places--the Beauvais archers of France used them in the period of the Hundred Years War. What is significant about the Welsh use of the long bow is that after the defeat of Llewelyn ap Griffith, Edward mandated their use among the English.

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I forgot about you question about spears. No, i know of no instance in which the Saxons used dedicated throwing spears. I'm sure you'll now claim they did. There is certainly a big difference between throwing spears such as a the Roman pilum, and the infantry spear for stabbing, such as that used by so many cultures. From the latter likely derives the pike. The Greek hoplites used a stabbing spear, which was never intended to be thrown.

So, i don't necessarily consider a spear a missile weapon--it would depend upon the type of spear.

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syntinen wrote:

Not true. Saxon art shows longbows more often than it shows short ones, and actual archaeological finds of longbows are known from Viking sites at Dublin, Birka & Hedeby, so it was certainly not only the Welsh who knew the longbow.

Depends on what time you are referring at: the Vikings and especially the Saxons used on the European continent more the "Sax" than any bow (especially the Saxons).

I know quite a lot of Saxon archaeological collections and exhibitions - very seldom bows were found (which might have been longbows, I admit).

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The Saxons did not use the bow, at least to any great extent, and it did not play a prominent part in their military thinking. One of the Norman's problems at Hastings was the lack of English bowmen. William was using a large number, mostly Bretons, who assumed they could replenish their supply by shooting back English arrows. As the English were not using the bow,, once the Bretons shot an arrow it was gone for good.

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It's nice to see a little backup--i've never previously heard any contention that the Saxon used bows militarily, and if so, i suspect it was very rare.

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Setanta wrote:

Charming new member . . . have we welcomed him yet?

New member ??? Research is a marvelous thing , pity you do not do any .

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roger wrote:

Well, Jock, he cites sources. What do you cite - your own inate knowledge? What sounds good?

Do you own research . Find you own sources , and as you do so , you will find that the "sources 'that Setanta cites are wrong.

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Have you got any references to offer in support of your position, Jock?

They would be helpful for those of us who are interested in learning more about this topic.

Research, etc.

I'd hope that you'd know where to locate the reference sources for your position more easily than those of us who are less familiar with the topic. I believe Roger's already asked for those references.

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Ah, just saw your most recent post.

Nemmind then.

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