Who's booty you kissing?

Good afternoon everyone. Montana says this is Treat Everybody Nice on A2K Day, so can we do that?

Heph, Wolfie isn't given to derogatory statements very often. Sometimes some things may seem a bit more derogatory than he actually meant.

And Wolfie, Heph's a sweetie. She's got a great sense of humor and she puts it out there. She doesn't ask anyone to agree with or disagree with her. She puts out what she feels.

Some you know are definitely being that way and some are not. But, I do have to agree with Wolfie on the arguments being circular and getting locked into that position and it seems the only way it changes is we all just get tired and there's a lull or something.

If we could come up with some "common ground" regarding these issues it might be different. I realize it is just as hard for the non-religious to understand the religious as it is for the religious to understand the non-religious. There are two completely different premises and no common ground to start with.

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hephzibah wrote:

Oh brother... spare me the nonsense would ya?

What nonsense? The fact that the 740 pages in the Evolution vs. Creationism debate are down to arguments being revisted over and over again (what I meant by circular debate)? Or the fact that I have no clue what the Heck we were talking about before we went off on this tangent?

I assure you that neither is nonsense.

If you want nonsense, however, I can give it to you.

Wolf's Idea of Nonsense: Brown me the green and I'll see you quiver paper eaters.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Oh brother... spare me the nonsense would ya?

What nonsense? The fact that the 740 pages in the Evolution vs. Creationism debate are down to arguments being revisted over and over again (what I meant by circular debate)? Or the fact that I have no clue what the Heck we were talking about before we went off on this tangent?

I assure you that neither is nonsense.

If you want nonsense, however, I can give it to you.

Wolf's Idea of Nonsense: Brown me the green and I'll see you quiver paper eaters.

LOL cute wolf. Very cute. I'll have to clarify that later. Sorry. Time to go to work. Have a good day.

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No the nonsense that it would be impossible for you to have an effect on that wolf. You have two choices in such a case. Either you try SOMETHING to get things out of the circular motion, or you walk away and find something more interesting to talk about. Your choice. But to just sit here and make comments like "oh, we're just going in circles here." is nonsense to the enth degree. It does no one any good. Least of all yourself.

Be assertive. Walk the line. Throw a new perspective out there. Why not? What do you really have to lose anyway? LOL If you've thrown everything you've got out there already, well then it's probably just time to move on. No biggy. There's plenty of topics to choose from around here. You know what I mean?

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hephzibah wrote:

No the nonsense that it would be impossible for you to have an effect on that wolf. You have two choices in such a case. Either you try SOMETHING to get things out of the circular motion, or you walk away and find something more interesting to talk about. Your choice. But to just sit here and make comments like "oh, we're just going in circles here." is nonsense to the enth degree. It does no one any good. Least of all yourself.

Be assertive. Walk the line. Throw a new perspective out there. Why not? What do you really have to lose anyway? LOL If you've thrown everything you've got out there already, well then it's probably just time to move on. No biggy. There's plenty of topics to choose from around here. You know what I mean?

I always choose the walk away and find something more interesting, because it is impossible for me to have an effect. Nigh impossible, at least. It's like trying to push a mountain with your bare hands and move it a mile.

See? Even now the conversation is going off on a complete tangent and will possibly go back round to square one.

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Momma Angel wrote:

If we could come up with some "common ground" regarding these issues it might be different. I realize it is just as hard for the non-religious to understand the religious as it is for the religious to understand the non-religious. There are two completely different premises and no common ground to start with.

I have been engaging Christians online for some time now, attempting to see if there is something I've missed, some new revelation, a greater understanding. Likewise, I share my thoughts of the other side, trying like other non-theists to apply logic and reasoning to the discussion.

What returns from the Christians in the form of electronic bits reassembled on my monitor is similar to the three monkeys--see, speak and hear no evil. To prevent frustration from overwhelming the process, I remind myself of the mindset of those so engaged. Thus, when a non-Christian posits a well-grounded argument, the theist sees it in heavenly terms. He or she believes someone is looking over their shoulder recording every keystroke in a black book. This text will be visited and examined in minute detail at some later date. Each completed sentence receives an approving nod by this someone, while each rebuttal by the delinquent atheist garners a furrowed brow of this someone. What is important then is to defend the religion; logic be damned.

So I ask myself and those still reading--what is at the heart of this condition? Is it fear of God? Fear of the unknown? Maybe, but suggesting that will get you nowhere but to a whizzing contest. All the theist need do is say they are not motivated by fear and the great question is mired in are too, am not.

Instead, I believe the reason for the intransigence is contained in Pascal's Wager. (If you are unfamiliar with it Google is invaluable.) Theists have believed their position is the only safe and sensible one because of this proposition.

That PW can be destroyed logically is beside the point. That's why us non-theists suspect the base instinct is actually fear, and call the theist on it.

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tycoon wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
If we could come up with some "common ground" regarding these issues it might be different. I realize it is just as hard for the non-religious to understand the religious as it is for the religious to understand the non-religious. There are two completely different premises and no common ground to start with.

I have been engaging Christians online for some time now, attempting to see if there is something I've missed, some new revelation, a greater understanding. Likewise, I share my thoughts of the other side, trying like other non-theists to apply logic and reasoning to the discussion.

What returns from the Christians in the form of electronic bits reassembled on my monitor is similar to the three monkeys--see, speak and hear no evil. To prevent frustration from overwhelming the process, I remind myself of the mindset of those so engaged. Thus, when a non-Christian posits a well-grounded argument, the theist sees it in heavenly terms. He or she believes someone is looking over their shoulder recording every keystroke in a black book. This text will be visited and examined in minute detail at some later date. Each completed sentence receives an approving nod by this someone, while each rebuttal by the delinquent atheist garners a furrowed brow of this someone. What is important then is to defend the religion; logic be damned.

So I ask myself and those still reading--what is at the heart of this condition? Is it fear of God? Fear of the unknown? Maybe, but suggesting that will get you nowhere but to a whizzing contest. All the theist need do is say they are not motivated by fear and the great question is mired in are too, am not.

Instead, I believe the reason for the intransigence is contained in Pascal's Wager. (If you are unfamiliar with it Google is invaluable.) Theists have believed their position is the only safe and sensible one because of this proposition.

That PW can be destroyed logically is beside the point. That's why us non-theists suspect the base instinct is actually fear, and call the theist on it.

You will excuse the expression, Ty...but...AMEN!

You stated it beautifully.

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tycoon and frank,

Aren't there other emotions behind religion besides fear? For example: a desire to find meaning in existence would not necessarily represent fear of the unknown.

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wandeljw wrote:

tycoon and frank,

Aren't there other emotions behind religion besides fear? For example: a desire to find meaning in existence would not necessarily represent fear of the unknown.

Yes, but what drives that desire? What is the underlying motive? I suspect it's fear that there is no meaning, but I could be wrong.

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I especially like the part about the big guy looking over their shoulders. That's a good point... very true! I went through this about 20 years ago, when I realized that if there was a god, it would most likely not appreciate being reduced (in my mind) to such a grudge-bearing, uncompassionate low-life. If there is a god up there, I bet he is way better than me, even on my best day. And if I'm wrong and he is a low-life... well, he should be flattered that I think so highly of him... and if he isn't flattered... well you just can't please everyone.

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wandeljw wrote:

tycoon and frank,

Aren't there other emotions behind religion besides fear? For example: a desire to find meaning in existence would not necessarily represent fear of the unknown.

A fair enough question, wandeljw. I won't pretend to divine all the motivations possible. But let me ask this instead: Why go there in the first place? What is missing in a Christian's life that simple pagan pleasures don't satisfy? Why doesn't an act of planting and tending to a simple garden for instance satisfy the experience of living? Why appeal or look to some shrouded mystery to satisfy an unscratched itch?

Or viewed another way, why not accuse the theist of outright, unbridled greed? All this experience of life in its fullness, and it's not enough?

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wandeljw wrote:

tycoon and frank,

Aren't there other emotions behind religion besides fear? For example: a desire to find meaning in existence would not necessarily represent fear of the unknown.

I'm don't think the expression "emotions" is applicable here. I will leave that be...and respond to what I see to be the essential question you are asking, Wandel. If I am in error in my adjustment, I apologize.

I suppose if forced to defend the proposition "There are other motivating factors behind religion besides fear"...

...I could come up with a presentation that would rate a "C" or a "B"...

...but I doubt I could get an "A."

This honestly is a case of "If it waddles when it walks; has feathers; is often found floating on ponds; and quacks a lot...it is a duck." I suppose it could be a goose...or even a swan with a vocal defect...but more than likely, it is a duck.

They...(the theists)...ACT like they are terrified.

There is virtually no difference between the way they act toward their god than the way the man on the street in Baghdad acted toward Saddam Hussein when interviewed on Iraqi television prior to the invasion.

You couldn't have found one person on the streets of Baghdad who would express anything less than devotion to that monster...but the moment he was out of power, they were fighting each other to gain room to spit on portraits of the man.

In any case...we have the story (the Bible) of what the god is like. The god is jealous, quick to anger, slow to forgive, vindictive, vengeful, retributive, tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric...and who knows what all else.

If you disobey the god...it will visit punishment on you that looks like it came from a Stephen King book filmed by Tarantino.

Read Deuteronomy Chapter 28:15 forward. Read about the curses that go on for paragraph after paragraph. Horrible, horrible stuff. Stuff that should be an embarrassment to anyone not terrified.

How could any sane person who actually thinks this god exists...NOT BE IN ABJECT FEAR OF THE MONSTER?????

Of course they are in dread...and of course the dread is the prime motivating factor...so much so, that the "other factors" of which you made note, Wandel...don't even come into play.

And equally certain is that they can never, never, never acknowledge that there is anything other than deep abiding love and adoration that motivates them.

It is a sad state of affairs.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
tycoon and frank,

Aren't there other emotions behind religion besides fear? For example: a desire to find meaning in existence would not necessarily represent fear of the unknown.

Yes, but what drives that desire? What is the underlying motive? I suspect it's fear that there is no meaning, but I could be wrong.

I agree with Wolf, and will just add that it is fear that drives us to look for meaning... in anything.

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Frank,

Your rephrasing of my question was actually an improvement on my phrasing.

I understand your response, also. (I was just hoping for something more on the level of a doctoral thesis Smile

)

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tycoon wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
If we could come up with some "common ground" regarding these issues it might be different. I realize it is just as hard for the non-religious to understand the religious as it is for the religious to understand the non-religious. There are two completely different premises and no common ground to start with.

I have been engaging Christians online for some time now, attempting to see if there is something I've missed, some new revelation, a greater understanding. Likewise, I share my thoughts of the other side, trying like other non-theists to apply logic and reasoning to the discussion.

What returns from the Christians in the form of electronic bits reassembled on my monitor is similar to the three monkeys--see, speak and hear no evil. To prevent frustration from overwhelming the process, I remind myself of the mindset of those so engaged. Thus, when a non-Christian posits a well-grounded argument, the theist sees it in heavenly terms. He or she believes someone is looking over their shoulder recording every keystroke in a black book. This text will be visited and examined in minute detail at some later date. Each completed sentence receives an approving nod by this someone, while each rebuttal by the delinquent atheist garners a furrowed brow of this someone. What is important then is to defend the religion; logic be damned.

So I ask myself and those still reading--what is at the heart of this condition? Is it fear of God? Fear of the unknown? Maybe, but suggesting that will get you nowhere but to a whizzing contest. All the theist need do is say they are not motivated by fear and the great question is mired in are too, am not.

Instead, I believe the reason for the intransigence is contained in Pascal's Wager. (If you are unfamiliar with it Google is invaluable.) Theists have believed their position is the only safe and sensible one because of this proposition.

That PW can be destroyed logically is beside the point. That's why us non-theists suspect the base instinct is actually fear, and call the theist on it.

Wow. Tycoon. This was absolutely amazing. Very well said. Very well thought out. I honestly don't think I've ever seen such a well presented view point.

Tycoon there is a common ground in most instances, believe it or not. In my opinion the common ground is forgotten because the "christians" forget where they came from. They forget what it felt like to be on the outside of their little social circles looking in. They forget how it felt to be the one being called the "sinner". They forget. Some never have the chance to be personally touched by the bad things that happen in the world and are therefore clueless on anything but what they have been taught in church.

In my time of being "saved", or whatever you want to call it, I have run across and been run over by just about every type of "christian" out there. By self-proclaimed prophets speaking false words of wisdom. Self-proclaimed deliverance ministry people who decided I was possessed and needed demons cast out of me just two months after getting "saved". By a dear friend who "shook the dust from his feet" concerning me because I wasn't "getting it" as quickly as he thought I should. Just about everything imaginable. For whatever reason I wasn't allowed to forget where I came from.

It's ok. I'm glad now, for every last second of it because I don't want to sit on a high seat looking down my nose a people. I don't want to think I'm better than others just because of what I believe. I don't want to waive God around like a mighty banner knocking down a bunch of people in the process. It's BS. It's all BS. I don't want to forget where I came from. I don't want to forget who I was, lest I forget who you are. Lest I forget who God really is to me. To me and me alone. That is not meant to be a degrading statement. It is meant as this: Everyone has value. Everyone. I don't care what they say, how they say it. What they believe. What they think of me or anyone else who believes in God. They have value as a person. It is when people lose site of that, which I honestly have at times too, that they forget.

The simple fact of the matter is that regardless of whether God is real to anyone, He is real to me, and yes, a lot of that came through my emotions right or wrong by anyone's view point. I see value in people because I honestly believe with all my heart that God saw value in me when I had nothing. When I had less than nothing, if that's even possible. That's sure how it felt anyway. When I sat betrayed by everyone in my life who was suppose to love me. When I sat alone thinking about life, wondering why in the hell I was born. Why these people who said they loved God, didn't love me. Why they couldn't see anything in me except the things I did wrong.

You are absolutely right. It is based in fear for most, but I honestly don't believe it is a fear that all who believe in God function in. It is a fear that YOU are going hell and THEY are as well if they don't tell you that. A fear that someone might see they aren't perfect as the expectation seems to be for christians. A fear of the unknown. Of what they don't know or understand. And it's all covered by a blanket of love. False love. You can see right through it because their actions speak louder than their words. Their actions scream and they don't even realize it. Is that judgemental on my part? Perhaps. I just call it as I see it, and I've seen it a lot. Even in my own life.

As far as I am concerned, I don't serve God out of fear. Not the kind of fear you are talking about. I serve Him out of love. I serve Him out of what I believe He has done and changed in my heart. I serve Him purely out of the fact that when I had no value to anyone else in this world, for some reason He saw value in me. He loved me. He didn't give up on me when everyone else had. He didn't write me off as useless because of not understanding where I was coming from. That is who God is to me. Maybe it's foolish. Maybe I'm blind and ignorant. But believing that is what has made me what I am today, and for that I am not sorry.

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Heph, I wish you could understand that in your darkest moments, when you were feeling betrayed and you felt yourself leaning on God because of your need, it was you alone who pulled through. You did it yourself, and I wish you could give yourself credit.

Christians don't like to give credit to their species for some reason. They prefer to think of the whole "special creation" as worthless worms, forever ungrateful, always unworthy. I just don't see the value in that. No good can come from such an outlook.

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tycoon wrote:

Heph, I wish you could understand that in your darkest moments, when you were feeling betrayed and you felt yourself leaning on God because of your need, it was you alone who pulled through. You did it yourself, and I wish you could give yourself credit.

You should have written these words in capital letters...and then made them into bold type.

Beautifully said.

Heph...listen to Ty.

You did it.

You would be making a substantial personal evolutionary move if you could just give the credit where it is due...not to any god...but to you.

It is not an easy transformation...and I am sure people like Ty and me don't expect it to happen like a Perry Mason suspect confession...but if you made the move...you would benefit greatly.

Quote:

Christians don't like to give credit to their species for some reason. They prefer to think of the whole "special creation" as worthless worms, forever ungrateful, always unworthy. I just don't see the value in that. No good can come from such an outlook.

Once again, the word "amen" comes to mind.

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Hallelujah, Frank! LOL.

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So... Frank, Ty, tell me how I would benefit greatly? I sincerely would like to know what the benefits of not believing in God would be.

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Who's booty you kissing?

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