Who's booty you kissing?

dyslexia wrote:

neo I have no idea re your or franks IQ, nor do I care. What I do see is that you (neo) attempt to put forth what appears to be a reasoned argument to counter Franks reasoned argument. This is obviously a foolish endeavor as there can be no reasoned argument for a metaphysical explanation. Persons such as MA or Intrepid etal stick to such arguments as "I just believe" or "I have faith" or some such other argument which, really, is the only sustainble defense of religious belief.

Wow!

I'm sure glad I didn't say what I thought about saying later.

I'm sorry to have even thought it.

But I think you are off the mark about reason. It is the only justification for even attempting to answer Frank.

He has such a craftily designed strawman, even he does not see it.

It's funny that you should ask this. Though I know it wasn't directed at me. I actually have a few things to share concerning this very thing. (Big surprise I know. LOL) I don't need to do this here because I've already done, I can't remember how many times, in my mid 20's.

Let's talk about a "barbaric God" shall we?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and watches a grown man do unspeakable things to a five year old little girl?

How barbaric a God sits idly by while her "mommy" is in total denial about what happened?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and watches various babysitters isolate, belittle, and beat this same child?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and listens while this scared little girl tells her "mommy" and her mommy say's "You are lying" and sends her back time and again?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and listens while this same little girls "mommy" tells her, "Daddy never wanted you, he told me to have an abortion when he found out I was pregnant with you."?

All this before the age of 10.

That's not even mentioning some of the other things that happened through my teens and in my early 20's. I was a mess. My life was a mess, and I hated God. I HATED HIM. I blamed Him for everything. After all He is "all knowing and powerful" right? He could have stopped every single one of those things from happening. Yet HE DIDN'T.

Everything came to a head for me one day when I lost my job unjustly. I snapped. For the first time in my life all the grief, anger, resentment, and well... everything I had been holding in for years came out. It wasn't pretty. I ranted, I raved, and I TOLD GOD EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT HIM! I believe it went something like this:

GOD YOU ARE A MOTHER F 'ING LIAR!!!!! I F 'ING HATE YOU!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT YOU LOVE ME AND SIT BY AND WATCH THIS STUFF HAPPEN TO ME! HOW DARE YOU SAY I'M SUPPOSE TO LOVE AND TRUST YOU WHEN YOU DIDN'T EVEN CARE ENOUGH ABOUT ME TO STOP THOSE THINGS FROM HAPPENING!! HOW DARE YOU! HOW DARE YOU! YOU ARE THE BIGGEST F'ING LYING BASTARD OF THEM ALL. GO AHEAD GOD I DARE YOU... I MOTHER F' ING DARE YOU, STRIKE ME DOWN RIGHT NOW IF I'M SUCH A BAD PERSON YOU WOULDN'T EVEN LOVE ME ENOUGH TO PROTECT ME! WHY THE H*** NOT? IT WOULD JUST BE THE ICING ON THE CAKE AFTER ALL THE OTHER GOD D***** THINGS YOU'VE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO ME!

I've shared this with a few people along the way and the typical "christian" response is: "Why... I never... how DARE you speak to GOD like that!" LOL yeah whatever... not a friggin clue...

That was just one short little quip of several episodes like that. I cussed Him strait up one side and down the other. He deserved I thought. After all He had failed me. I even felt the possibility that this "wonderful God" had maybe even planned out a few of these things for me. I'm still here. Sometimes I wonder why. I certainly would have struck myself down with lightening had I been on the receiving end of that.

You can take the rest of this or leave it. It's totally up to you, but I'm fixin to tell you what happened next. Every time I got through one of these episodes I actually felt just a little bit lighter. A little bit more free. My life was slowly beginning to change. My perception was changing as well. I began to realize that not everyone in the world was out to "get" me as I had believed previously. Through out all of this I kept reading my "book of myths", as some call it, and I began to see some things I never saw before.

I began to see the situations in my life from a totally different perspective, and I learned about the power of free will. (Yes, I said the unthinkable words "free will".) I started to realize that God did not do those things to me. People did. But that still left me with the big question of WHY. Why did God allow it? The fact of the matter is, as I have said before, we are not God's little puppets on a string. This kind of thinking is what caused me to hold God ultimately responsible for the things that had happened to me.

God gave us a free will whether you believe it or not, and people choose to do some pretty horrendous things as a result of that. Yet God seemingly does nothing about it. Because He won't. He won't. I need you to really hear me here. The essence of true love is found only in the power to choose. If we were God's little puppets on a string there would be no choice in the matter. That is not love. That is a forced obedience. The things that were done to me as a child were wrong. There's no two ways about it. But God did not do that to me. People did. People.

While thinking about all this I came to the realization of why a lot of people don't want to believe in "free will". Because if you don't then that puts God in the position to be blamed for all the bad things that happen. It makes Him barbaric. It makes Him an inexcusable tyrant who loves to watch the suffering of mankind while He sits up in heaven and laughs about it. If you choose to believe in "free will" though it puts you in the position to #1 realize God is not a tyrant and #2 realize that people have a responsibility for what they do, yourself included.

The people who did those things are responsible for what they did to me. Not God. I am responsible for how I live my life now and how I choose to treat other people in light of what happened to me. I cannot hold what others have done to me against everyone in the world. It's not right. It is the same as holding God responsible for those things. They did not do it, neither did He. So Frank, I've walked in those shoes. I've been there. I've done that. I'm still here. Maybe what I believe about all this is of very little value to you. I'm sure it sounds quite absurd. *shrugs* It's ok. LOL I can't be anything other than what I am, and this my friend, is the not so gracious side of me. Welcome to my world.

{Hephzibah] Keep growing. You are doing a dynamite job of it.

neologist wrote:

Aside from the book of Genesis, How about the book of Job?

It is very convenient to put Satan in the hero role. Surely, Jesus did not.

Satan did not lie in the book of Job, but responded to God's boasts about Job's righteousness with his opinion that Job would curse God if subjected to misfortune. God proved otherwise by allowing Job's 10 children to be killed, his servants slaughtered, his property destroyed and his skin to be infected with boils, worms, etc. . . .

True, but Job did not sin, and he was restored. You should read the rest of the story.

To fear, in regard to God, is to hold Him in such loving esteem as to be afraid of offending the one so admired.

Love and fear are not opposites. They actually go hand in hand.

Frank and Tycoon, Thank you.

Something I forgot to add last night was first of all I don't condone that kind of behavior to anyone. Least of all God. However, if that is how someone is feeling it is vital for them to get it out. Whether they believe in God, or never choose to believe in God. That kind of stuff is what eats people from the inside out.

The effects of it are astounding, but cannot usually be seen by the person whom it is having the greatest affect on. My point in sharing this was that I do agree that God can be seen as barbaric. I completely understand why. That is the kind of god that people fear as you say. People can think that of God without even necessarily realizing that is what they are doing, or how they are really feeling. The typical "christian" response I talked about shows that with a certain clarity. Which is why I said, "not a friggin clue ".

I believe there are two kinds of fear. The barbaric fear and the sincere fear. The barbaric fear is what I personally have seen most often displayed in my interactions with "christians". This ideal that is similar to what I was talking about last night. Though that kind of fear is not limited to "christians" only. Living in this kind of fear is what causes God to be portrayed this way in their life. Through the things they say and do. But there's another kind of fear that I mentioned before earlier in this discussion:

To fear, in regard to God, is to hold Him in such loving esteem as to be afraid of offending the one so admired.

I finally remembered who this quote is from. Philip Keller. LOL Anyway, this kind of fear is completely different. Though I can see how some would say, "What? You honestly believe that those things you said were not offensive to God?" Well, truthfully speaking if we believe God is real. If we believe God truly loves us. If we believe God really knows everything about us. Then no, it was not offensive. Because it is my personal opinion that it would be more offensive to pretend I didn't feel that way. To put on a plastic smile, say all those lovely catch phrases that are floating around "christianity" today, while in my heart I despise Him. That would make a liar. Doing that did make me a liar.

While I understand why you put out that challenge Frank, I honestly don't think it would have proven much of anything. Simply because even if there are people out there who say they love God and yet deep inside hold this ideal of Him being barbaric, for them to do such a thing just to prove a point would not further your cause or theirs. It would just simply show that like all of us, they are human.

hephzibah wrote:

To fear, in regard to God, is to hold Him in such loving esteem as to be afraid of offending the one so admired.

Heph,

The opposite of love is fear. I don't believe it's humanly possibly to jointly hold both passions in your heart at the same time. One strangles the other.

Additionally, if someone loves you to such a degree as you believe the Christian God loves you, why would he become offended at such trivial matters? The greater the love the more unconditional, no?

hephzibah wrote:

Love and fear are not opposites. They actually go hand in hand.

The fear that is under discussion in this thread is not the reverential awe kind of fear of which you speak.

I doubt you as a five year old had reverential awe and love for the man abusing you, along with the various babysitters. You were probably scared of them--real fear--and love was the furthest thing from your mind.

See the diff?