Who's booty you kissing?

Come on, MA. You can do it. I'm rooting for you!

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Frank,

I love you too, you...........

Well, I have to admit I am glad to see that this has finally come down to this. It seems you are asking for some kind of proof here, Frank. You are confusing me though, ok?

You say that God is barbaric, murderous, etc., but if I tell you off He's not going to zap me dead or anything? So Frank, which is it? You think He will zap me dead because He's barbaric and murderous or He won't because...............why?

I will tell you this much. There have been times I have thought, "If just for five minutes I wasn't a Christian I would tell him a thing or two!" But, thankfully, I'd come to my senses and realize that is wrong.

So, no, I'm not going to tell you off Frank, and I'm not going to do it because I'm afraid God will zap me, that's not the reason. I'm not going to do it because it's wrong. I will not dishonor God by attacking you. I will not dishonor myself by attacking you and I will not dishonor you by attacking you. I will not return hurt for hurt.

So, what is it? Why wouldn't he zap me if He's so murderous, Frank? Why wouldn't He?

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000033.gif

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You seriously need to learn to read MA.

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Questioner,

With all due respect and restraint right now, "Kiss my grits!"

Frank,

Telling you off would be the same as telling God off. Telling anyone off is the same thing as telling God off. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If it's wrong to do it to you, it's wrong to do it to God.

I don't have a problem with God, Frank. I don't have any reason to tell God off. I am at peace with God so why would I tell Him off?

I will not tell Him off to prove to you that I am not afraid of Him. I won't tell you off to prove I'm not afraid of Him. I won't tell anyone off to prove I'm not afraid of Him.

You IMO are the one that is afraid of Him. YOU are the one that has a problem with Him. YOU are the one that calls Him names. Not me. I suggest that YOU have a discussion with Him about what YOUR problem is, Frank IMO.

And, that is said with love.......................

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000040.gif

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Questioner wrote:

You seriously need to learn to read MA.

AMEN!

I love her...she has a great heart.

But how do you get through to her???????

How do you get her to read with comprehension?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Questioner,

With all due respect and restraint right now, "Kiss my grits!"

Frank,

Telling you off would be the same as telling God off. Telling anyone off is the same thing as telling God off. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If it's wrong to do it to you, it's wrong to do it to God.

I don't have a problem with God, Frank. I don't have any reason to tell God off. I am at peace with God so why would I tell Him off?

I will not tell Him off to prove to you that I am not afraid of Him. I won't tell you off to prove I'm not afraid of Him. I won't tell anyone off to prove I'm not afraid of Him.

You IMO are the one that is afraid of Him. YOU are the one that has a problem with Him. YOU are the one that calls Him names. Not me. I suggest that YOU have a discussion with Him about what YOUR problem is, Frank IMO.

And, that is said with love.......................

When you get ready to show us all that you are not in abject dread of this demon god of yours, MA...we will be right here for you.

By the by...

...after reading the Bible and listening to how the god conducts itself and how it treats anyone who dares defy it in any way...and the kinds of punishments it metes out for the offenses it metes them out for...

...anyone who honestly thinks that god exists would be insane not to be in abject terror of it.

If the god were a human...it would be confined to an asylum under conditions that would make Hannibal Lecter's confinement seem like relative freedom.

The god is that bad.

All said with a great deal of respect for you, MA.

Twisted Evil

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And it's all taken with a great deal of respect, Frank and right back at ya.

But, you can't do it. You can't make me so angry at you that I'm going to lose it and let you have it. I am really sorry that you see God the way you do, Frank. Because He's been pretty good to me.

And, if I ever get to the point that I am angry at Him for something, I'm sure I'll talk to Him about it. But so far, nothing that has happened in my life has been His fault, Frank. He's always been the one there for me and has never let me down. It's the people of the world that let you down. It's not God.

You want to know how to get through to me, Frank?

I can tell you that. I've been trying to tell you that since pretty much day one. Stop saying things like .................anyone who honestly thinks that god exists would be insane not to be in abject terror of it.

If you're terrified then YOU are terrified. If I'm not, then I'M not. Simple as that Frank. Simple as that.

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dyslexia wrote:

neo I have no idea re your or franks IQ, nor do I care. What I do see is that you (neo) attempt to put forth what appears to be a reasoned argument to counter Franks reasoned argument. This is obviously a foolish endeavor as there can be no reasoned argument for a metaphysical explanation. Persons such as MA or Intrepid etal stick to such arguments as "I just believe" or "I have faith" or some such other argument which, really, is the only sustainble defense of religious belief.

Wow!

I'm sure glad I didn't say what I thought about saying later.

I'm sorry to have even thought it.

But I think you are off the mark about reason. It is the only justification for even attempting to answer Frank.

He has such a craftily designed strawman, even he does not see it.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Let's put this to a test with anyone willing to take the test.

Pick out one thing in the Bible where the god is acting like a jerk...and here, in this thread, call the god on it. Tell the god it acted like a jerk in this particular instance...or a murder...or a barbarian.

Pick out anything....and do it.

There are tons of items of that nature in the first five books.

Why don't you people just put me in my place...and show us how unafraid of your god that you are?

C'mon.

There have been times in the past when I have been stressed by the trials of life - grandchildren dying - things like that. In my grief I cursed God with profanity. I hoped he would strike me dead. But I felt close enough to him to know he saw my grief. I felt sorry later because I know that this is not the time for God to set things straight. Kinda glad he didn't do what I asked, too.

Which is why I won't take you up on your challenge. There are many things in the OT where folks (like you) have accused God of unimaginable cruelty. However the fault of such abominations lies not with God, but with his adversary. God has promised to set things straight and just because you are not satisfied with his time frame, you guess he must not exist.

Well, I don't guess you are wrong, Frank.

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Bravo, Neo. Well said.

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Ditto from me on that, Neo!

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neologist wrote:

God has promised to set things straight and just because you are not satisfied with his time frame, you guess he must not exist.

It's all very well to argue that at some point god will "set things straight", but that does not change the premise of God murdering or being barbarous, nor does your assertion that at some point god will "set things straight" give rationale to such actions in the first place.

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Chumly wrote:

neologist wrote:
God has promised to set things straight and just because you are not satisfied with his time frame, you guess he must not exist.
It's all very well to argue that at some point god will "set things straight", but that does not change the premise of God murdering or being barbarous, nor does your assertion that at some point god will "set things straight" give rationale to such actions in the first place.

Actions by whom?

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hephzibah wrote:

Terry wrote:
The passage is translated as "their eyes were opened" because the evolution of the human brain/mind was not understood by the Israelites or later translators. Even today, people can block things from their awareness (trauma or things they cannot deal with). Prior to developing self-consciousness and conscience, people were no more aware of their nakedness than a cat is. One wonders what God wore when talking to them, why they never noticed that they were "different," and why they would have been ashamed of the bodies God gave them after they were enlightened.

So what was the "original" thing that was said then? What was it translated from? I think if you are going to present an argument about something you had ought to back up what you are saying with some sort of proof other than just your words. And I'm curious where you found this information as well. Of course people can block things from there awareness. I myself have done this. However, since we're talking about literal's here, and this is obviously not a literal statement, this really could be perceived in many different ways. Me, being someone who believes in spiritual things, can easily perceive this as being a matter of their spiritual eyes being opened until shown otherwise.

I don't know what was originally said because I do not read Hebrew. I do know a bit about the workings of the brain, however. There are many sources on the web if you are interested as well as some very good books, but I don't know why you are asking me for "proof" when you do not provide sources for everything you post, nor do you generally require it from others.

So why do you suppose God thinks that parts of the bodies he created for us are shameful and must be covered?

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tycoon wrote:

God didn't seem to follow through with his punishment to the serpent. It doesn't appear that Satan was crawling on his belly eating dust when he led Jesus up to an exceedingly high place.

Not much of a punishment for man--pull a few weeds and otherwise become gainfully employed in the agricultural business.

But he was good on his word about the dominion thing over women and the childbirth thing. Those women sure have that coming, don't they? Teach them a thing or two about doing what they're told.

Good points. If Eve was actually tempted by Satan, either in the guise of a snake or co-opting its body, it hardly seems fair for the snake to lose its legs and eat dust for something it had no control over.

The problem with punishing women by making the pelvic opening too small (or the baby's head too big) is that millions of women and their babies died as a result. Why would a loving God make innocents suffer?

Quote:

If there ever was a time for lawyers, it was then. My own lawyer, as unmotivated as he is, could drive his BMW top speed through this scenario and deliver a knock-out summation to the jury.

It would all boil down to who's in charge. Who's responsible for this tragic chain of events? Who put that stupid tree there? Who created this cunning con artist? Who didn't place the proper warning labels on him? Who was negligent in the training for on the job responsibilities? Who was absent in his oversight when imminent danger was present?

And sadly, who decided redemption was necessary? Why couldn't they just happily live forever naked in the stupid garden without the phony need to redeem?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if the myth don't fit, you can't acquit.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Terry wrote:
God (or the writer of Genesis) seems to have lied when God was said to have made man in his image, since man was created weak and ignorant, not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal, and certainly not "perfect."

What image of God was the template for Man?

Just so you realize I am not ignoring you. Why will you accept parts of the Bible as truth (the parts you obviously feel are derogatory, lies, etc.,) but continue to ignore the parts of the Bible that speak of love, goodness, mercy, etc.

I thoght it was Christians that were accused of cherry picking? Terry, "Come out of that tree!"

Nice to see you again, Terry.

Thanks. I do not accept any part of the Bible as God-given truth, but as a work of men. As such, I recognize that it contains a good bit of Jewish history, myths, legends, poetry, philosophy, tedious lists of dead people and temple accoutrements, good stuff, bad stuff, and mediocre stuff. The Bible as a whole does not portray God as loving, good, or merciful (have you ever read Revelation?) and I think that the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" message of the NT is completely illogical and unnecessary.

Quote:

I, for one, am only responsible for and suffer the consequences of my own actions. I don't suffer them for what Adam and Eve did. Perhaps that is where some are going wrong here? Do you actually feel God is up there in heaven saying, "because Adam and Eve did this I'm gonna spank you for it?"

Have you never given birth, weeded a garden, or suffered from the institutionalized discrimination against women? If not, perhaps God has exempted you from Original Sin. He certainly did not exempt me from the punishment for it! Perhaps that's because he knew I would choose wisdom over ignorance every chance I got.

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Frank wrote:

MA is simply unable to grasp the concept of being able to quote from the Bible to make a point...WITHOUT ACCEPTING those parts as truth.

I have explained this to her at least 10 - 15 times...but she obviously is not up to the task of understanding it.

I do hope you give it a try.

Maybe you will have better luck.

I doubt it, but ever the optimist :wink: . I'm glad you're back.

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neologist wrote:

Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
God has promised to set things straight and just because you are not satisfied with his time frame, you guess he must not exist.
It's all very well to argue that at some point god will "set things straight", but that does not change the premise of God murdering or being barbarous, nor does your assertion that at some point god will "set things straight" give rationale to such actions in the first place.
Actions by whom?

God.

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Frank wrote:

Quote:

(This next part is not necessarily for you, Heph. You have been very gracious in your posts. This part is addressed to all the Christians participating here...especially the ones insisting they are not afraid of their god.)

Let's put this to a test with anyone willing to take the test.

Pick out one thing in the Bible where the god is acting like a jerk...and here, in this thread, call the god on it. Tell the god it acted like a jerk in this particular instance...or a murder...or a barbarian.

Pick out anything....and do it.

There are tons of items of that nature in the first five books.

Why don't you people just put me in my place...and show us how unafraid of your god that you are?

C'mon. .

It's funny that you should ask this. Though I know it wasn't directed at me. I actually have a few things to share concerning this very thing. (Big surprise I know. LOL) I don't need to do this here because I've already done, I can't remember how many times, in my mid 20's.

Let's talk about a "barbaric God" shall we?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and watches a grown man do unspeakable things to a five year old little girl?

How barbaric a God sits idly by while her "mommy" is in total denial about what happened?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and watches various babysitters isolate, belittle, and beat this same child?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and listens while this scared little girl tells her "mommy" and her mommy say's "You are lying" and sends her back time and again?

How barbaric a God sit's idly by and listens while this same little girls "mommy" tells her, "Daddy never wanted you, he told me to have an abortion when he found out I was pregnant with you."?

All this before the age of 10.

That's not even mentioning some of the other things that happened through my teens and in my early 20's. I was a mess. My life was a mess, and I hated God. I HATED HIM. I blamed Him for everything. After all He is "all knowing and powerful" right? He could have stopped every single one of those things from happening. Yet HE DIDN'T.

Everything came to a head for me one day when I lost my job unjustly. I snapped. For the first time in my life all the grief, anger, resentment, and well... everything I had been holding in for years came out. It wasn't pretty. I ranted, I raved, and I TOLD GOD EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT HIM! I believe it went something like this:

GOD YOU ARE A MOTHER F 'ING LIAR!!!!! I F 'ING HATE YOU!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT YOU LOVE ME AND SIT BY AND WATCH THIS STUFF HAPPEN TO ME! HOW DARE YOU SAY I'M SUPPOSE TO LOVE AND TRUST YOU WHEN YOU DIDN'T EVEN CARE ENOUGH ABOUT ME TO STOP THOSE THINGS FROM HAPPENING!! HOW DARE YOU! HOW DARE YOU! YOU ARE THE BIGGEST F'ING LYING BASTARD OF THEM ALL. GO AHEAD GOD I DARE YOU... I MOTHER F' ING DARE YOU, STRIKE ME DOWN RIGHT NOW IF I'M SUCH A BAD PERSON YOU WOULDN'T EVEN LOVE ME ENOUGH TO PROTECT ME! WHY THE H*** NOT? IT WOULD JUST BE THE ICING ON THE CAKE AFTER ALL THE OTHER GOD D***** THINGS YOU'VE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO ME!

I've shared this with a few people along the way and the typical "christian" response is: Shocked

"Why... I never... how DARE you speak to GOD like that!" LOL yeah whatever... not a friggin clue... Rolling Eyes

That was just one short little quip of several episodes like that. I cussed Him strait up one side and down the other. He deserved I thought. After all He had failed me. I even felt the possibility that this "wonderful God" had maybe even planned out a few of these things for me. I'm still here. Sometimes I wonder why. I certainly would have struck myself down with lightening had I been on the receiving end of that.

You can take the rest of this or leave it. It's totally up to you, but I'm fixin to tell you what happened next. Every time I got through one of these episodes I actually felt just a little bit lighter. A little bit more free. My life was slowly beginning to change. My perception was changing as well. I began to realize that not everyone in the world was out to "get" me as I had believed previously. Through out all of this I kept reading my "book of myths", as some call it, and I began to see some things I never saw before.

I began to see the situations in my life from a totally different perspective, and I learned about the power of free will. (Yes, I said the unthinkable words "free will".) I started to realize that God did not do those things to me. People did. But that still left me with the big question of WHY. Why did God allow it? The fact of the matter is, as I have said before, we are not God's little puppets on a string. This kind of thinking is what caused me to hold God ultimately responsible for the things that had happened to me.

God gave us a free will whether you believe it or not, and people choose to do some pretty horrendous things as a result of that. Yet God seemingly does nothing about it. Because He won't. He won't. I need you to really hear me here. The essence of true love is found only in the power to choose. If we were God's little puppets on a string there would be no choice in the matter. That is not love. That is a forced obedience. The things that were done to me as a child were wrong. There's no two ways about it. But God did not do that to me. People did. People.

While thinking about all this I came to the realization of why a lot of people don't want to believe in "free will". Because if you don't then that puts God in the position to be blamed for all the bad things that happen. It makes Him barbaric. It makes Him an inexcusable tyrant who loves to watch the suffering of mankind while He sits up in heaven and laughs about it. If you choose to believe in "free will" though it puts you in the position to #1 realize God is not a tyrant and #2 realize that people have a responsibility for what they do, yourself included.

The people who did those things are responsible for what they did to me. Not God. I am responsible for how I live my life now and how I choose to treat other people in light of what happened to me. I cannot hold what others have done to me against everyone in the world. It's not right. It is the same as holding God responsible for those things. They did not do it, neither did He. So Frank, I've walked in those shoes. I've been there. I've done that. I'm still here. Maybe what I believe about all this is of very little value to you. I'm sure it sounds quite absurd. *shrugs* It's ok. LOL I can't be anything other than what I am, and this my friend, is the not so gracious side of me. Welcome to my world.

Terry wrote:

Quote:

I don't know what was originally said because I do not read Hebrew. I do know a bit about the workings of the brain, however. There are many sources on the web if you are interested as well as some very good books, but I don't know why you are asking me for "proof" when you do not provide sources for everything you post, nor do you generally require it from others.

So why do you suppose God thinks that parts of the bodies he created for us are shameful and must be covered?

Oh reeeeeally? How interesting. I'll have to get back to you on this.

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neologist wrote:

Aside from the book of Genesis, How about the book of Job?

It is very convenient to put Satan in the hero role. Surely, Jesus did not.

Satan did not lie in the book of Job, but responded to God's boasts about Job's righteousness with his opinion that Job would curse God if subjected to misfortune. God proved otherwise by allowing Job's 10 children to be killed, his servants slaughtered, his property destroyed and his skin to be infected with boils, worms, etc.

Quote:

BTW, Minor point:
They were created in the sixth day after which God declared his creation was good. They sinned in the seventh day. Did you see anywhere that the seventh day has ended?

Uh, yes, the 7th day ended at sunset, of course.

God wrote:

Exodus 20: 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

If the 7th day had not ended, we would not be told to remember it. Note that "He rested" not "He is resting," although there are a more than a few people who think that God is still on vacation. :wink:

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