Who's booty you kissing?

Me? I'll dialogue with anyone and any interpretation the poster sees fit to present. It's all fertile ground.

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Well Chumly,

This is my quandry. It's been said that Christians/religious, whatever you would call it, are picking and choosing in the Bible as to what is literal and what is not. Now, I believe that parts of the Bible are meant as to be taken literally and some are. So, why do you choose this part we are speaking of to be literal (the punishment part) and I see it more in a allegorical sense?

I am curious as to why you would choose to accept the (obviously to you) bad part of the story of Adam and Eve and yet you seem to discount the rest of it?

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I am not so-called "choosing" I am dialoging. Where is the pretense of choice?

I have already said "I'll dialogue with anyone and any interpretation the poster sees fit to present." Where is the pretense of choice?

In order to argue your claim that I "choose to accept the (obviously to you) bad part of the story of Adam and Eve and yet you seem to discount the rest of it?" you would need to find a quote from me which sad something to the effect "I believe that parts of the Bible are meant as to be taken literally and some are.(sic)" as you have done.

There will not be any as I have made no such choice.

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Chumly,

I guess I have been looking at this incorrectly from your standpoint? I know that you are "supposing" (I think that's the word you used) that there is a God for the sake of this discussion. But, you obviously have chosen to believe that God is the one lying here and Satan is telling the truth, right?

Are you taking that position just for the sake of the discussion or do you really believe that is the case re: the story?

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Hephzibah wrote:

Quote:

Now, you have stated that you believe this was done to prevent them from becoming "more god-like" than they already were.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

I do not think I ever said that.

Remember...I think this story is an allegory...a deeply DEEPLY flawed allegory.

I think the people who wrote it thought humans were "sinful" and this story is just their feeble attempt to justify what they saw as the pain of living the human condition.

Quoted from page 11.

Frank Apisa wrote:

...By the way..."the outcome" of knowing good and evil...according to both the god and the serpent...

...was to become like gods.

If your god did not want them to gain the knowledge of good and evil...the only rational way to interpret that is that the god did not want them to become like gods...not that the god was protecting them from the outcome.

And the first thing the god did after finding that they had become like gods...was to curse them and all the human beings that came after them....and then threw them out of Eden before they ate of the tree of life...which would make them even more god-like....

Sorry. Not trying to stick it to you here. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page is all.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Beats the hell out of me. Are you saying this is your god being loving?????

Maybe the god thought living naked would subject them to greater danger of disease and sickness...and they would not live long enough to be punished as much as the god wanted them to be punished.

But I really do not know. The allegory make no sense to me...and this part is no less nonsensical than any of the other parts.

What I'm saying Frank by all of this is sometimes you have to look deeper than just the surface to be able to really understand the issue is or what was happening.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

They would not have had to be "redeemed" in the first place, if the god hadn't put more on their plate than they could handle. This was a sting operation, Heph.

LOL More on their plate than they could handle eh? You yourself have said:

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Adam and Eve did not know good from evil...they were tempted by the greatest tempter of all time...and the infraction actually gained them knowledge.

They were tempted by the great tempter. Why? Because they had a choice in the matter. There can be no temptation if there is no choice.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Maybe it is colder...and the weather more harsh outside the garden, Heph. You have no idea of what pains they felt...or the causes of the pains. And how is the pain of childbirth...that the god so lovingly bestowed on Eve...related to her knowledge of good and evil?

Neither do you.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Why should I...or you...or MA...or anyone else be subjected to "consequences" of any kind because of the choices Adam and Eve made????

Frank, just as Adam and Eve were given a choice. So are we. We do not have to live with the consequence of their choice unless WE choose to.

Quote:

And if the "consequences" involves pain that would otherwise not be felt...perhaps the differnce between "punishment" and "consequences" is as great as you want to think it is.

The difference between punishment and consequence is this:

Consequences fit the crime so to speak. Punishment does not. I learned this principle at work actually.

At the job I had in FL they did things based on a level system. You had to earn each level you were on through good behavior. With each level (1,2,3 or,4) you were allotted different privileges. It was designed to teach them how to function within certain boundaries, how to set goals and achieve them, and how to maintain good behavior. There was a lot more to it than that, but I needed to say that much so the rest will make sense.

If a kid at work sucker punches someone in anger the consequence of that would be he would lose his current level, and quite possibly have charges filed against him for battery, based on how bad the situation was.

A punishment for that would be to just take away his extra privileges for a few days, such as watching tv, playing video games, going to the basket ball court for recreation, and so forth. It has nothing at all to do with what he did, and he stands to lose nothing except a few days of extra privileges, so what is to stop him from doing it again? How can he learn from his mistakes if the consequence doesn't fit the crime?

This actually happened where I used to work. They took away the level system and said we could only take extra privileges away for bad behavior. All hell broke loose shortly there after because the boys didn't stand to loose so much anymore. They would gladly give up their extra privileges for a few days so they could punch the new kid in the face. *shrugs*

Frank wrote:

Quote:

But anyway...am I to assume from what you wrote that you think the punishment was very proportional to the offense?

I believe that what happened was a direct result of disobedience to God. No, I don't think it was too harsh. Unless of course they had not been forewarned that there would be a consequence for doing what they did. But the thing to remember is it was more than just a consequence. It was an opportunity to learn from the mistake they had made.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I guess I have been looking at this incorrectly from your standpoint? I know that you are "supposing" (I think that's the word you used) that there is a God for the sake of this discussion.

The supposition was as per a post of Neo's not this post here.

Chumly wrote:

For the sake of this argument I will entertain the notion, as if I do not, then there is no point in replying at all!

http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&p=1897283

Momma Angel wrote:

But, you obviously have chosen to believe that God is the one lying here and Satan is telling the truth, right?

Again I am not stating supposed beliefs, but dialoging based on the premises of the posters and considerations of that ilk.

I am a free range turkey here!

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Chumly,

Well, then do me a favor and hold still! Laughing

How do you expect me to hit a moving target anyway? I am having a hard time keeping up with you and it's because you keep changing directions? Okay, where's that .3030 of mine?

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000033.gif

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Chumly wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Why should I...or you...or MA...or anyone else be subjected to "consequences" of any kind because of the choices Adam and Eve made????

Well...it IS in keeping with the temperment of the god.

In the god's first "commandment"...we find...

"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation, but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments." Deuteronomy 5:6ff

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Convenient anthropomorphizing instead of knowledge of the mind of god (assuming such knowledge knowledge is possible).

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hephzibah wrote:

Hephzibah wrote:

Quote:
Now, you have stated that you believe this was done to prevent them from becoming "more god-like" than they already were.

Frank wrote:

Quote:
I do not think I ever said that.

Remember...I think this story is an allegory...a deeply DEEPLY flawed allegory.

I think the people who wrote it thought humans were "sinful" and this story is just their feeble attempt to justify what they saw as the pain of living the human condition.

Quoted from page 11.

Frank Apisa wrote:

...By the way..."the outcome" of knowing good and evil...according to both the god and the serpent...

...was to become like gods.

If your god did not want them to gain the knowledge of good and evil...the only rational way to interpret that is that the god did not want them to become like gods...not that the god was protecting them from the outcome.

And the first thing the god did after finding that they had become like gods...was to curse them and all the human beings that came after them....and then threw them out of Eden before they ate of the tree of life...which would make them even more god-like....

Sorry. Not trying to stick it to you here. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page is all.

Not at all, Heph. I honestly did not remember making that remark...but I realized I might have, which is the reason I hedged my bet....("I don't think I said"...rather than, "I did not say") in my comment.

Quote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
Beats the hell out of me. Are you saying this is your god being loving?????

Maybe the god thought living naked would subject them to greater danger of disease and sickness...and they would not live long enough to be punished as much as the god wanted them to be punished.

But I really do not know. The allegory make no sense to me...and this part is no less nonsensical than any of the other parts.

What I'm saying Frank by all of this is sometimes you have to look deeper than just the surface to be able to really understand the issue is or what was happening.

I understand that. Now perhaps you can understand that sometimes, especially in discussions of the Bible...theists are not truly looking deeper...they are merely making rationalizations.

The item about whether the serpent told the truth or not is an example of tortured logic...trying to rationalize the absurd.

Quote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
They would not have had to be "redeemed" in the first place, if the god hadn't put more on their plate than they could handle. This was a sting operation, Heph.

LOL More on their plate than they could handle eh? You yourself have said:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
Adam and Eve did not know good from evil...they were tempted by the greatest tempter of all time...and the infraction actually gained them knowledge.

They were tempted by the great tempter. Why? Because they had a choice in the matter. There can be no temptation if there is no choice.

I do not understand your point here at all.

Quote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
Why should I...or you...or MA...or anyone else be subjected to "consequences" of any kind because of the choices Adam and Eve made????

Frank, just as Adam and Eve were given a choice. So are we. We do not have to live with the consequence of their choice unless WE choose to.

According to the myth, Heph...your god visited the pains he inflicted on Adam and Eve...on all their posterity. No humans were ever going to be welcome back in Eden.

If you accept this myth as the reality...of course you are living with the consequence of their choice.

Quote:

Quote:
And if the "consequences" involves pain that would otherwise not be felt...perhaps the differnce between "punishment" and "consequences" is as great as you want to think it is.

The difference between punishment and consequence is this:

Consequences fit the crime so to speak. Punishment does not. I learned this principle at work actually.

At the job I had in FL they did things based on a level system. You had to earn each level you were on through good behavior. With each level (1,2,3 or,4) you were allotted different privileges. It was designed to teach them how to function within certain boundaries, how to set goals and achieve them, and how to maintain good behavior. There was a lot more to it than that, but I needed to say that much so the rest will make sense.

If a kid at work sucker punches someone in anger the consequence of that would be he would lose his current level, and quite possibly have charges filed against him for battery, based on how bad the situation was.

A punishment for that would be to just take away his extra privileges for a few days, such as watching tv, playing video games, going to the basket ball court for recreation, and so forth. It has nothing at all to do with what he did, and he stands to lose nothing except a few days of extra privileges, so what is to stop him from doing it again? How can he learn from his mistakes if the consequence doesn't fit the crime?

This actually happened where I used to work. They took away the level system and said we could only take extra privileges away for bad behavior. All hell broke loose shortly there after because the boys didn't stand to loose so much anymore. They would gladly give up their extra privileges for a few days so they could punch the new kid in the face. *shrugs*

Interesting story...thank you for sharing. I do not see how this fits in.

Quote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
But anyway...am I to assume from what you wrote that you think the punishment was very proportional to the offense?

I believe that what happened was a direct result of disobedience to God. No, I don't think it was too harsh. Unless of course they had not been forewarned that there would be a consequence for doing what they did. But the thing to remember is it was more than just a consequence. It was an opportunity to learn from the mistake they had made.

Heph...if you think this punishment fits this infraction...

I'll leave that thought unfinished.

The story is an absurdity...and the only reasonable guess I can make as to the motivation of anyone who buys into it is abject fear of this barbaric monster called a god in the book.

Sorry, Heph, but that is how I feel.

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Frank wrote:

Quote:

Not at all, Heph. I honestly did not remember making that remark...but I realized I might have, which is the reason I equivocated (I don't thing I said...rather than, I did not say) in my comment.

I wasn't sure. But thanks for understanding.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

I understand that. Now perhaps you can understand that sometimes, especially in discussions of the Bible...theists are not truly looking deeper...they are merely making rationalizations.

The item about whether the serpent told the truth or not is an example of tortured logic...trying to rationalize the absurd.

Well, this is actually a hard call to make though. Sometimes in order to look deeper you need to be willing to look at it from different perspectives. To rationalize something isn't necessarily bad I don't think. It gives you more options, different ideas, different ways of looking at things. Everyone has to make their own decisions about things. Some people will just believe something simply because it is there, or someone says it, with out ever taking the time took look deeper and see what's really there and come to their own conclusion.

I used to do that. I used to sit in church every sunday and take in everything that was said as being the absolute truth. Rolling Eyes

I idolized the ones standing behind the pulpit. I was arrogant, rude, self-righteous, ignorant to others needs, had a "bless me" mentality, and so on. I felt that being a "christian" some how made me better than everyone else. I thought that telling people to turn or burn was actually some how helping them... I could go on forever. I left the "church" about two years ago. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done because I was so hooked into it

I had been doing some bible studies on my own outside of what I was being taught in church. Things weren't meshing. The things that were coming clear to me from the bible studies did not match what was being taught in church. As a matter a fact a lot of it was in opposition to what was being taught. I was in a frustrating position. When I left I got my first dose of what it feels like to be on the outside looking in. I was suddenly "the enemy" for having left. And I was accused of being all the things I was while going to church, simply because I had left. It was sad. Through this experience though I learned to look deeper and not just take things at face value.

(edit: LOL I have to add something here. I don't know how many people have read this, so rather than change what I said I'll just add to it. I actually left the church almost three years ago now. My... how time fly's. I did go to church off and on through out that time. I don't know if it was the churches I was picking but man I gotta tell you... some of the stuff that was taught was horrendous. No joke. So anyway, I tried going back to church with my husband for about a month after we got married. I just can't do it any more though. shakes her head)

Hephzibah wrote :
[quote]They were tempted by the great tempter. Why? Because they had a choice in the matter. There can be no temptation if there is no choice.[/quote]

Frank wrote:
[quote]I do not understand your point here at all.[/quote]

Sorry about that. I was actually refereing to the first statement I quoted:

Frank wrote:
[quote]They would not have had to be "redeemed" in the first place, if the god hadn't put more on their plate than they could handle. This was a sting operation, Heph.[/quote]

My point was you said God put more on their plate than they could handle. However, they had to be tempted in order to do what they were told not to do. Eve didn't think that one up all on her own. She had help. If it was more than they could handle then there wouldn't have been a choice involved. Yet there had to have been a choice involved since there can be no temptation if there is no choice. Therefore it is not a string operation.

Frank wrote:
[quote]According to the myth, Heph...your god visited the pains he inflicted on Adam and Eve...on all their posterity. No humans were ever going to be welcome back in Eden.

If you accept this myth as the reality...of course you are living with the consequence of their choice.[/quote]

It's not about going back to Eden Frank. God was outside of Eden as well. I don't live under that consequence because God made another way. But that is not yet something we are talking about. Whether or not we will get that far... LOL there's no way to tell. Though I hope so.

Frank wrote:
[quote]Interesting story...thank you for sharing. I do not see how this fits in. [/quote]

It was meant as an insight into the difference between consequence and punishment. Sorry, I thought I stated that.

Frank wrote:
[quote]Heph...if you think this punishment fits this infraction...

I'll leave that thought unfinished.

The story is an absurdity...and the only reasonable guess I can make as to the motivation of anyone who buys into it is abject fear of this barbaric monster called a god in the book.

Sorry, Heph, but that is how I feel.[/quote]

Frank, how you feel is fine. I don't have any problem with that, or with you because that is how you feel. We are all entitled to believe as we wish. I do my best not to criticize or judge anyone because they don't feel the same as I do about something. When it's all said and done, really what we thought or felt about it isn't going to be relevant. Because things are how they are and will end up how they will end up, regardless of how you or I choose to perceive things. Maybe you're right. Maybe I am. Then again, maybe both of us are wrong.

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I suggest it might be best to put this to bed for a while, Heph.

You asked me to give examples of why I consider the god of the Bible to be the disgusting creature I consider it to be...and I said I would start at the beginning.

We've discussed the beginning....the very beginning.

The words of the Bible descibe a god that created two people...a man and a woman...innocent, naive, waifs. The god withheld from them any knowledge of good and evil...they did not know right from wrong...virture from evil....they did not know there was anything wrong or evil about anything...including obedience or disobedience.

The god put them in a "garden" ...and told them that they were not allowed to eat the fruit of one particular tree...and that if they did, on that very day they will surely die.

The god, for reasons not given, allowed the greatest tempter of all time to tempt the woman into eating of the fruit...and told her that she would not die, but instead would gain knowledge that would make her as one of the gods.

The woman, innocent, naive, unknowledgeable about right and wrong...good and evil...ate of the fruit...and enticed the man to do the same. They did not die...and they did gain knowledge.

The god discovers that this has been done...and metes out one of the harshest punishments ever inflicted for any crime anywhere at any time...in fact, punishing all of humanity for this one mistake.

You have looked at those same words and events...and come to the conclusion that god acted wisely, justly, and in good faith...and that there is nothing indicative in this story but of a loving, kind, reasonable, adoration worthy god.

You have looked at those same words and events...and come away concluding that the god spoke the truth...and that the tempter lied.

We are not going anywhere, Heph...that is painfully obvious.But it has been fun trying...and I TRULY have enjoyed this discourse.

I hope we meet and discuss many things in the future.

If you want to continue anything here...or over in the other thread...I'm here for you...or any of the others.

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Frank. Perhaps you are right, we are just going in circles. Nice summery by the way. I stand where I stand for a reason. Many don't agree with those reasons and have said many things along the same lines as you. Thats ok. What I believe is what has made me who I am today. Right or wrong that is the truth. I can't prove it. Nor is there really any way to show it. It just is. I don't believe what I believe because I have to. Or because I am afraid of going to hell or anything else. I believe it because I want to. I choose to. Because believing it changed my life. Changed who I am. It gives me something to hold on to when I have nothing because everything else has fallen apart.

I can imagine how incredibly foolish that must sound to some. Maybe it is. All I know is that when it is all said and done regardless of if what I believed was truth or not, I will have no regrets because it made me a better person. This "myth" taught me how to love, how to laugh, how to be patient and kind. How to think of others needs before my own. How to see the world from a different perspective. How to see life from a different perspective. I know I don't do these things perfectly and I know I never will. I know I have made my share of mistakes. But I will have no regrets because I will have lived my life doing what I believed was right. That is the best any of us can do.

Thank you for your honesty through-out this discussion. Thank you for presenting your side without judgement. I have truly enjoyed this too. I hope we do meet and discuss many things in the future as well.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

. . .
The words of the Bible descibe a god that created two people...a man and a woman...innocent, naive, waifs. The god withheld from them any knowledge of good and evil...they did not know right from wrong...virture from evil....they did not know there was anything wrong or evil about anything...including obedience or disobedience. . .

You have most certainly failed to prove naivete on the part of Adam and Eve, though you have bellowed your assertion loudly.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The god put them in a "garden" ...and told them that they were not allowed to eat the fruit of one particular tree...and that if they did, on that very day they will surely die.

The god, for reasons not given, allowed the greatest tempter of all time to tempt the woman into eating of the fruit...and told her that she would not die, but instead would gain knowledge that would make her as one of the gods.

The obvious reason has to do with the most important issue in the universe: Does God have the right to ask the free will obedience of his sentient creatures?

Frank Apisa wrote:

The woman, innocent, naive, unknowledgeable about right and wrong...good and evil...ate of the fruit...and enticed the man to do the same. They did not die...and they did gain knowledge.

ER,

Frank.

The last time I checked, they were not here. May we conclude they are, in fact, dead?

BTW, Minor point:
They were created in the sixth day after which God declared his creation was good. They sinned in the seventh day. Did you see anywhere that the seventh day has ended?

Frank Apisa wrote:

The god discovers that this has been done...and metes out one of the harshest punishments ever inflicted for any crime anywhere at any time...in fact, punishing all of humanity for this one mistake.

But, in the very same conversation in which they were condemned, he provided the promise of redemption, a resurrection during which those who never knew God will have the opportunity to regain all which Adam and Eve lost.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You have looked at those same words and events...and come to the conclusion that god acted wisely, justly, and in good faith...and that there is nothing indicative in this story but of a loving, kind, reasonable, adoration worthy god.

You have looked at those same words and events...and come away concluding that the god spoke the truth...and that the tempter lied.

We are not going anywhere, Heph...that is painfully obvious.But it has been fun trying...and I TRULY have enjoyed this discourse.

I hope we meet and discuss many things in the future.

If you want to continue anything here...or over in the other thread...I'm here for you...or any of the others.

Have a nice day, Frank.

You too, heph.

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Thanks neo. You have a nice day too. Smile

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Hang in there, heph.

Frank needs a whuppin' ever now'nthen.

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LOL Thanks. I'm hangin... I've been seriously thinking about spicing up my debating skills a little. Maybe changing the recipe some. A little less sweet, a little more sour... Hmmm... might make things more interesting... LOL

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Heph,

Nah. A little more salt, maybe? LOL Laughing

color]

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . .
The words of the Bible descibe a god that created two people...a man and a woman...innocent, naive, waifs. The god withheld from them any knowledge of good and evil...they did not know right from wrong...virture from evil....they did not know there was anything wrong or evil about anything...including obedience or disobedience. . .
You have most certainly failed to prove naivete on the part of Adam and Eve, though you have bellowed your assertion loudly.
Frank Apisa wrote:

The god put them in a "garden" ...and told them that they were not allowed to eat the fruit of one particular tree...and that if they did, on that very day they will surely die.

The god, for reasons not given, allowed the greatest tempter of all time to tempt the woman into eating of the fruit...and told her that she would not die, but instead would gain knowledge that would make her as one of the gods.
The obvious reason has to do with the most important issue in the universe: Does God have the right to ask the free will obedience of his sentient creatures?
Frank Apisa wrote:

The woman, innocent, naive, unknowledgeable about right and wrong...good and evil...ate of the fruit...and enticed the man to do the same. They did not die...and they did gain knowledge.
ER,

Frank.

The last time I checked, they were not here. May we conclude they are, in fact, dead?

BTW, Minor point:
They were created in the sixth day after which God declared his creation was good. They sinned in the seventh day. Did you see anywhere that the seventh day has ended?
Frank Apisa wrote:
The god discovers that this has been done...and metes out one of the harshest punishments ever inflicted for any crime anywhere at any time...in fact, punishing all of humanity for this one mistake.
But, in the very same conversation in which they were condemned, he provided the promise of redemption, a resurrection during which those who never knew God will have the opportunity to regain all which Adam and Eve lost.
Frank Apisa wrote:
You have looked at those same words and events...and come to the conclusion that god acted wisely, justly, and in good faith...and that there is nothing indicative in this story but of a loving, kind, reasonable, adoration worthy god.

You have looked at those same words and events...and come away concluding that the god spoke the truth...and that the tempter lied.

We are not going anywhere, Heph...that is painfully obvious.But it has been fun trying...and I TRULY have enjoyed this discourse.

I hope we meet and discuss many things in the future.

If you want to continue anything here...or over in the other thread...I'm here for you...or any of the others.
Have a nice day, Frank.

You too, heph.

Ahhh...what the hell. You are terrified of the monster...so I guess you've got to try to sell this snake oil.

I love ya anyway...even if you are a frightened child trying to make nice for the boogeyman.

Twisted Evil

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Neo,

Perhaps it's true what I have heard? That often some will project their inner feelings as belonging to another?

I know you're not afraid of God, Neo. I'm not either. We've been to this particular matinee a few times, eh? :wink:

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Who's booty you kissing?

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