Juveniles charged with violent crimes should tried as adults

What you are probably witnessing is a lack of desire to repeat debate. I've long ago discussed many of these subjects with many long-time members, to no mutual agreement other than to agree to disagree.

Your assumptions that beating kids is the only solution on the other hand, while perhaps no less unpopular, is a bit more unique in this 21st Century... and frankly is far less defensible. The best kids I know; invariably come from civilized homes where reason rather than fear is employed. The most violent member of my extended family's parents were upstanding, good natured people who erroneously shared your philosophy. This kid only suffered regimented beatings, only when having done something to warrant it; not abuse. The result was the same. He grew up with a mentality that he could beat his brand of right into any man who dared think otherwise. Perhaps if reason, rather than the stick, had been employed; he would have grown up with a mentality that he could reason his brand of right into any man who dared think otherwise?

There's no slide rule between proper parenting and good kids; it is a question of likelihood. Likewise, there is no guarantee's that any philosophy will yield the desired results. There is however an abundance of indicators that your fear method has a multitude of unintended side-effects that aren't promoted by the reason method.

The barbaric beating method has been passed down from generation to generation and all too frequently results in a perverted sense of righteousness by men who think they are right when they over use the privilege... or slip their wife in with the kids as people who can and should be controlled by fear. Good to hear that hasn't happened to you; but your assumption that it happened to none of your peers is rather naive. Domestic violence is a cycle that stems from erroneously righteous beliefs in proper use of excessive force.

While I'm forced to concede that a healthy dose of punishment would benefit many a child (my childhood self included); I maintain that a parent paying enough attention to administer it could accomplish the same with more reasonable methods… methods that aren't so easily and frequently perverted by the recipient of same.

In an ideal world; a child should grow up absent fear. There should be no indicators that fear is a tool he should use to his advantage. One need only look in the eyes of a child to assess the relative innocence. Children whose eyes bear the weight of the world at a young age are a disturbing sight to see. Children whose eyes show no indication of same bring a smile to my face and warmth to my heart. I'd wager a hefty sum I could distinguish the children who come from homes that believe in reason-based parenting from those who come from the fear-based model with some measurable degree of accuracy by doing nothing more than looking in their eyes. I'd further wager that a higher percentage of trouble makers and especially the worst of the worst come overwhelmingly from the fear-based group. These are of course opinions; so don't ask me to furnish proof. If you have some evidence to disprove my theory, however, I'd very much like to see it.

Occom Bill - you have ventured a couple of very basic and erroneous assumptions about my attitude towards corporal punishment. You have misrepresented me with a couple of wild assumptions drawn from your own imagination.



I have never said any such thing. The option for a spanking should be used sparingly - and should always be administered without anger, and 'served up cold'.

And in most cases where the child has erred in his behaviour - the cane or spanking need not be applied - but instead, it should be sufficient to remind the child that we are social creatures who live in a society towards which we owe a whole catalogue of ethical and behavioral obligations.

I have also nowhere proposed that the use of corporal punishment is a one-size-fits-all panacea for the control of all childhood mischief. Counselling, and plenty of parental support and love are vital ingredients towards bringing your child up as a responsible and civilised human being.

I also don't believe that a policy that works in the majority of cases should be abandoned as ineffectual and redundant simply because a few recalcitrant individuals happen to respond negatively to its intentions.

Occom Bill - I don't know if you've posted this elsewhere, but here's the video of Dr Wafa Sultan itemising a few of Islam's less proud features and its almost total lack of contribution towards the civilised circumstances and the advanced development that we in the West enjoy today.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

That's odd - I can't get the site to load from here - but I can from elsewhere.

Hey what school so u go to? You think i can get a look at ur case... i need some inspirating i just started doing this... im actually a policy debater so yeah get back to me

I am another who's very passionate about this subject.

I was born in a Hispanic country and even before I was at peace with myself I would get beaten up and tortured for being 'gay'. It still amazes me to this day how they could tell, if ever seen me you'd know I'm not exactly camp. I suppose it was to do the with the very macho-centric culture of Cuba. It had more to do with my character than with the people that turned me on sexually, because to be honest while I definitely knew what sex was (Not many hang ups about sex in Hispanics countries in general) it was not something I thought of constantly at that age. I was always the boy who'd rather read a book or paint than go outside and play, the kind of kid who'd try to stop the other guys from killing a lizard/bird or beating up another kid.

So yeah, you can imagine life was hell for me, but I'm not deeply scarred as Montana seems to be. I guess it's just another world altogether, when you're worried about what you're going to have for dinner the thought of getting a daily beating is just another hardship you have to bear.

But anyways, I came to the US when I was eleven (legally, for anyone that gets prickly about this) and surprisingly things didn't change much (well except for my family earning really good money [By US standards] and having plenty of food.)

I was a bit surprised when things here were just the same old routine, though at least I didn't get mocked for not fighting back, so I endured.

Ok, my point here is that my life has been a huge sob story, yet I still can't seem to muster Montana's thirst for vindication or Herberts need for retaliation. At the end of the day I would come home to a mother that would give her life for me thrice over and love me were I a murderer and a step-father who while not very bright, took in stride both my goth-phase and my coming out. Yet the kids that bullied me, you can imagine what their home lives were like (I took the liberty of doing a little research) and you can guess it wasn't pretty. People in general are a byproduct of their environment, but kids more so, they're also the sum of their parents mistakes.

I don't think you can rightly blame a kid because sometimes they *don't* know better. It is very easy to see things like these in a completely self-centered, biased light, it's only human after all. I think everyone should have a chance in life to *at least* aspire to be more than what they were pre-determined to be. You absolutely can't breed righteousness from punishment, not when the person doesn't understand what they're being punished for. Punishment without a reward is selfish, for the sake of the punisher it is wanton. You've got to teach responsability first and foremost, fear is not respect and it doesn't beget understanding.

I'm not saying here that society should take every-son-of-a-crack-whore into their hands and nurture them into bright young people, because it's not realistic. At the same time however, we should at least try.

I am currently sixteen, soon the be seventeen years old and I can honestly say that I'm a wholly different person that I was last year. I've grown quite a lot, intellectually as well as emotionally. Adults seem to underestimate just how naïve kids can be, and seem to forget how easy they're to mold, for good or ill.

There has to be a better solution for dealing with criminals, specially young ones. At the moment, no matter how petty the crime, putting them at the mercy of the current system is as good as saying "Your life means nothing and I can't be bothered to care". Why not just chuck them off a bridge instead? Definitely less taxing on the economy wouldn't you say?

Sorry for the long winded post.

So, the victims can continue to be victims. <sigh>


I have plenty of bridges in my area for anyone who ever thinks about putting me through that again ;-)

No apology necessary... that was a very insightful. And, frankly, it was very impressive for 16 year old typing in a second language. Well done.

Let me add my congratulations to that of OCCOM BILL's.

You're obviously an exceptionally bright young fellow, Eryemil - and all you need do to steer a path toward future success and a life of happy fulfilment with many good friendships is to just keep on maintaining your current good sense and mature attitude.

Never allow yourself to become discouraged or dispirited by the ignorant prejudices and the brutish rancor of the morons who we all have to share our society with.

As a hetero living in Australia, I am aware that the average US male has a far greater neurotic fear of its homosexual community than is the case here in Australia.

Good luck for the future, Eryemil.

Can you honestly say you'd be the same person today had you not gone through what you went? Somehow I get the feeling you wouldn't be as strong, though I obviously cannot say. Please enlighten me?

I am, today, an emotionally strong person because of how I grew up though I am by no means a masochist I believe that who I am today is directly linked to what I've been through. I get the feeling your experience wasn't at all like mine however and I doubt you can see things my way. In my country children are taught from a very young age to beat anyone who tries to beat you and if you don't defend yourself then you have no right to complain. I don't agree with this, obviously but I could have fought back and made my life easier. (Moral convictions, something else to thank my mother for. Wouldn't it be nice if every child on this world would have someone teach them these things? :p)

Struggle builds good character, but only on those with a solid understanding of self-betterment and a relatively positive outlook on life. While people like you and me had a good background and were able to channel that struggle into bettering ourselves I bet our abusers saw no choice but channeling life's lemons into anger and resent against society. I don't think you can expect kids to make the right choice if they were never taught what right is.

Keep in mind that I never say they were blameless, the things that I was put through I wouldn't wish on anyone. I really understand your anger but I feel it is a bit unfair. (Not that it is my place though)

Once people are older a change of heart is not very probable but like I said earlier, kids *are* willing to listen. Even the most bitter and resentful ones. I think those that are willing to listen deserve a chance. For those that are not willing to listen, at least an attempt should be made.

Currently people that are supposed to be helping them, most don't really care and they can see that. There's nothing more hurtful I'd venture. The adults that should be caring for their interests dispose of them like trash. It's not becoming of us as supposedly civilized beings, I think.

It is very easy to dish out (rightful) blame without looking at the glaringly obvious reasons why things happen the way they happen and these kids do what they do.

I've gone and written another essay. ^^'

Oh, and thanks, OCCOM BILL. :] *edit* You too Herbert, life's looking up for me at the moment.

Eryemil
I envy you for thinking and feeling the way you do and I truly wish I could feel the same, but unfortunately I don't think I ever will.

Yes, I am much stronger today than I would be if none of it ever happened, but it's only in the sense that I won't tollerate any abuse from anyone ever again on any day of the week.
I use to be a kind and trusting person and now I'm bitter and very untrusting of people in general.
I am no longer allowed to be myself without leaving myself wide open to abusers who prey on people like me.
Being myself is a sign of weakness and it attracts the abusers like flies on ****, so in the end, I have to continue to spend the rest of my life holding up this very heavy brick wall, just to protect myself from the preditor.
Obviously, this seems very unfair to me and I don't think I'll ever be able to find any compassion for the preditor, nor do I have any interest in doing so because if I do, I let my guard down and once again become the prey.
I had to quit school at 15 years old to protect myself from these monsters and after all the years of abuse from them, I find it impossible to even consider having any compassion for them.

Please know that I don't disagree with you for the most part, but I personally can't get past the years of my life I lost because of these abusers.

You're a very smart young man and I'm so glad you got through it and were able to get to where you are at such a young age :-D

Hi Herbert ;-)

It makes sense Montana. I've never dismissed that damage that these people can do because it's impossible to dismiss.

This is one of those subjects that makes you realize just how unfair life can be, one of those no-win situations. Things like these scale in a circle which ultimately means a whole lot of pain for a whole lot of people.

You're so right, Erymil!

I know I sound very cruel in this thread and others like it, but it's only because I was treated with so much cruelty myself, along with you and so very many others.

I am a happy person today, but it would be nice to be able to let my guard down once in awile, so I could feel that total peace I've longed for all my life.

Peace to you, Eryemil :-D

Thanks alot everyone for your help on this topic. It has helped me alot.

There you are, BSF :-)

If you don't mind me asking, how has it helped you?

It really gave me a different look on this subject and I feel as though i can use most of this information to create a debate that will be indestructable from all sides of the issue