Would you give up your tax cut if?

I was tempted to write: Conservatives like New Haven and Max will never get it!

But the fact is that many people like New Haven and Max eventually do get it -- when they or a loved one comes under the protection of one of the many programs designed to help those who need that help -- programs (and the philosphy behind those programs) that they have mocked and trivialized over the years.

It is too bad that people like them are so shallow -- but, hey, being shallow doesn't make them bad people.

For the most part, they're dupes -- not dopes. (Not that it's all that easy to tell!)

Although I like max and don't consider him a shallow person, I feel that this quote was shallow on his part in context with this thread. Sometimes hard work just isn't enough.




One must realize that one must WORK in this society to attain what one needs.

Jimmy Carter once famously said that "life is unfair." Of course, he was right, but the question is: What does one do after accepting that fact? One approach is to take what you can get and assume others can do as well. Another approach is to try to remedy certain inequalities.

Because the truth is that there isn't a level playing field. Life IS unfair. Some of us were born and raised in nice, middle-class homes, got good educations and stayed relatively healthy. Others were (and are) less fortunate. What do we do with that information?

Some would say that those of you who are more fortunate should try and help the less fortunate. It's the humane thing to do.

Bear :Implied (though apparently not inferred) in my words was the qualifier, "when one can". What I also truly believe is that those who are unable to take care of themselves be taken care of, what pains me is the assistance that is given to those who do not need or even deserve it.

eoe: Your missive brings with it the implication that I am not charitable, well good sir or madam, I would put my charitable time, talents, and treasure up against yours to see who is the most "benevolent".

The notion that it is only through the construct of governmental aid that one may be charitable is ludicrous and inaccurate to the extreme.

Oh no max. What I wrote wasn't directed at anyone in particular but an answer to D'artagnan's question "Life is unfair" and "What do we do with that information." How you managed to take that as a personal attack is curious, at best.
Nice to read that you're a charitable person. No need for a contest.

ok max, kiss kiss

Feel the love....

I was lost as to how that was construed personal, also.

Max, I would argue that everyone both needs and deserves health coverage. The fact that there are millions of us who can't afford it should tell you something.

BTW. My $300 goes straight to the ACLU. They are the folks who are doing the most to undo the damage to our nation of the current administration.

Fine, ebrown.

And I would respond that what is needed is a plan to address the needs of those millions, not EVERYBODY.

For many, the matter of health care is not broken and therefore not in need of a fix.

Surely you jest, Max.

Or better yet: Surely you jest, Max???

Why, of course I do, thanks for noticin', frank!!!


I don't happen to be in this instance, however.

The current estimate is that approximately 1/3 of the population is now without health insurance (which provides for health care), and if it weren't for medicare, that figure twould be considerably higher.

Working is something that a lot of people prefer to do. It not only brings in income, it provides a sense of slef-respect. But there have been millions of jobs lost over the past few years, and along with that loss came the inability to afford even minimal health care. And then you have all the Bears, who on paper should be able to do this, but in real life, can't. And so far, although conventional wisdom (whatever that is) says jobs and economy should grow with tax cuts, that hasn't happened. Quite the reverse.

Max, there's a saying that goes something like "it's easy to point a finger when you're one of the haves." I feel quite sure you're charitable, but in what form? When you have the money to give, it's easy. When you have the time to give, it's easy. The hard part is in knowing that in order for someone else to have something, you have to give up something.

The current HMO plan is broken. Any country that allows its children, its elderly, its infirm to limp along without some guaranteed health care is both backward and extremely selfish. There is no cap on CEO bonuses, off-shore registration of businesses to avoid taxes is given the wink, corporate crimes go largely unpunished, and those are the very people who say it's the American way, it's mine, keep away.

I still don't know anyone who's died and managed to take along their millions. And most of those same people really want their money - they aren't doing it for their kids or families.

National health is coming. Maybe not right now, but that will be our Peoples Revolution.

Could someone explain to me why so many Canadians skip over to the USA for surgery? Perhaps it's the fact that in Canada you often have to wait years for non-life threatening surgery? Like hip replacements? Imagine that...

I won't give up my tax cut either. I'm in favor of either a flat tax or the Fair Tax - anything to reduce the size and overhead of the IRS. Getting rid of them and that SS/Gestapo group they call the EPA would IMO be of great benefit.

Why death to the EPA? Because they lie, cheat and steal from small business in order to finance their larger "operations" against major corporations. They are a true American "gestapo".

Max this statement is out of touch with anything approaching reality.

If you are healthy, have a professional job and have no danger of being laid off the health care system. For the rest of us is is most certainly broken.

Talk to those of us who are unemployed. It is impossible for me to get health insurance now since I have been unemployed for 10 months. This is in spite of the fact I have a Physics degree and 8 years of software experience (this was an unlucky break but that is another story).

Having a large number of uninsured in illogical even for the most cold callous conservatives. If I get a nasty cough, for instance, do you think I am going to pay for a doctors visit? No, I will be a walking health menace, spreading TB until I end up in an emergency room requiring 10X the amount of care.

With drug-resistant TB, SARS and terrorism your view is even more illogical.

You should also talk to health care professionals. Everyone in this industry knows that the health care system is broken. My brother is in public health and notes that we could save money as a society simply by providing basic care to the poor *before* they develop serious problems.

You might also talk to an economist. The cost of health care is rising disporportionately to earnings, inflation or anything else.

Anyone who looks at the facts will see that the health care system is without doubt broken.

This is evident to everyone who is not burying their head in the sand to avoid helping those less important than them.

I suspect Max is saying that he personally has adequate insurance -- and since he does, it is alright for him to consider the matter of health care not to be broken -- and therefore not in need of a fix.

It is that kind of myopic view that causes so many of us who are not conservatives to consider those who are to be...ahhh, let's be charitable...to be dysfunctional.

I personally have adequate health insurance. There is no way I will allow that circumstance to cause me to be oblivious to the tremendous problems others have in that regard.

In my opinion, insofar as any of us are without adequate health insurance -- the health care of our nation is broken and in immediate need of a fix.

Jeez...one would think that considering the conversations that have ensued between Max and myself -- with Max talking about his God and his love for same -- and me talking about agnosticism -- our positions would be reversed on this issue.

But maybe we should save that aspect for discussion in the "Talking the talk don't mean squat" category.

Sheesh, retract those claws, francine!!

As Mama eloquently points out, (in her inimitable fashion, I might add) we are talking about providing coverage for the 30% or so of the population that doesn't have care, and making sure that the coverage that the other 70% continues.

Ok, can I get an "amen" on that?

I acknowledge (despite everyone's protestations to the contrary) that there is a problem.

I disagree with the size.

As CJ so correctly points out, we are still the envy of the free world when it comes to the level of health care.

And we can assure it for our "CITIZENS" for the foreseeable future if we would just be a little more discriminating (Hey! Look it up! it isn't always a bad word!) in who presently receives care, as well as the level of care they receive.

Max, you jerkoff. You just called me Francine -- and asked me to retract my claws.

How can someone who claims to be a man and looks so much like a woman possibly use that kind of tactic? Get with the program!



Gotta make a confession at this point. I know this is a sexist thing to acknowledge, but it represents the truth -- and it is apropos of this diversion.

The first month or so of my involvement in A2K, Max, I was cutting you a break because of that picture. You are one hell of a fine looking woman -- and I allowed that to temper my comments to you. You always have said stupid things -- but I let them pass because of the picture.

But that's in the past -- and this is now.

Work up some pride, man. Get a picture of yourself where you look like a man -- or if you really can't look like anything but a woman, put up a cartoon or some other avatar.

Let's get back to tax cuts, guys. If there is anything personal that one member wants to discuss with another, that's what PMs are for!