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Sephardic jews (conversos) of New Mexico

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 08:41 pm
Oh don't you ever cheat me.
Or rob, or slight or hur me.
'Cause if ya do i will torment ya
An' after death me ghost will haunt ya!
Love, faretheewell

You're sweeter, stronger, lovelier,
You're better far than I!
Oh Whiskey you're me darlin'
Drunk or sober!
0 Replies
 
husker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 08:44 pm
Good reading you guys.

Boss - easy on us Irish Wink
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 08:50 pm
I've known about the marranos and Isabella and Ferdinand for quite a while - am trying to remember if I learned about it from Harvey, a long time friend who once had a show on pbs not on this exact subject, or earlier.
Did not know until recently about the New Mexico aspect of all this, though.

I am, as most here so far know, a very long ago Catholic now describing myself as without theism (ahem), but am not a total religion basher. Semi-basher, that's me. I don't remember that I as a Catholic child was taught to hate Jews, at least in any concerted way. Too much else going on, re novenas, etc. I remember arguing with a Jewish friend when I was in my later twenties, out of religion but not by many years, that our religions were so close, and she shut me up with her disgust.

I ran across some of the history you tell, Dys, in my avid readings once I got interested in Italy, since much of the peninsula history was affected by people in what is now Spain. Heh, my italian teacher is a Borgia descendent.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:19 am
Eva wrote:

Set...malaria began in Italy? How did you ever learn that? I grew up hearing my father's tales of having malaria in the South Pacific during WWII. I always assumed it was of tropical origin...like most people, I'd imagine.


Some four or five thoasand years ago malaria was first noticed in the (eastern) Mediterranean area.

Later, Hypocrites wrote of malaria: History of Malaria
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:55 am
ossobuco wrote:
I've known about the marranos and Isabella and Ferdinand for quite a while -


It's better to use the term conversos rather than marranos. Marranos means swine or pigs.

Otherwise, it's like if you were saying "I've known about the pigs and Isabella and Ferdinand for quite a while - "

Also, I know it's an English convention, and I know I'm being nitpicky, but that queen's name was Isabel, not Isabella. I think Isabella came from the English mishearing of her titular name, Isabel la Catolica.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 01:23 am
InfraBlue wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Marranos means swine or pigs.


In today's Spanish.

In 14th/15th century, however, it was clear that converted Jews were meant by this - same in history today.

Portuguese marranos, who at first immigrated to Amsterdam (end of 17th century) and from there to Hamburg (about 1700), were known as marranos in Holland, but as Portuguese in Hamburg - as an aside here. And only shorly aftwards, they were 'Jews'.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 01:52 am
Yeah, I just looked it up in my Spanish dictionary. It comes from the Hispanic Arabic muharrám, which in turn comes from the Classical Arabic muharram, "declared (an) anathema."

Thanks Walter

It just sounds so terrible, though.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 06:53 am
Setanta wrote:
.... . . Ferdinand was the junior partner in the marriage to Isabella, and most people are unaware that the Conquistadores were fanatics devoted to their Queen, who got their start by slaughtering and expelling Muslims, and then Jews. They (Ferdinand and Isabella) produced a daughter, Joanna,...! ! !


And, FYI, another daughter, Catherine d'Aragona, married Henry VIII -- and since their only surviving child was a daughter, he sought a divorce, and so, eventually, the Church o' England was born.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:00 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Marranos means swine or pigs.


In today's Spanish.

In 14th/15th century, however, it was clear that converted Jews were meant by this - same in history today.

Portuguese marranos, who at first immigrated to Amsterdam (end of 17th century) and from there to Hamburg (about 1700), were known as marranos in Holland, but as Portuguese in Hamburg - as an aside here. And only shorly aftwards, they were 'Jews'.



Uh, I didn't say that.. InfraBlue did, and thanks for the correction, InfraBlue - not nitpicky.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:07 am
On malaria in Italy, I remember reading that the presence of mosquitoes and malaria in the lowlands was one of the reasons - besides the obvious reason of defensive siting - for the positioning of the towns on hills.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:10 am
ossobuco wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Marranos means swine or pigs.


In today's Spanish.

In 14th/15th century, however, it was clear that converted Jews were meant by this - same in history today.

Portuguese marranos, who at first immigrated to Amsterdam (end of 17th century) and from there to Hamburg (about 1700), were known as marranos in Holland, but as Portuguese in Hamburg - as an aside here. And only shorly aftwards, they were 'Jews'.


Uh, I didn't say that.. InfraBlue did, and thanks for the correction, InfraBlue - not nitpicky.


Actually, when I was in Hebrew School (lo these many years ago), the term marrano was used, and we were not told it was derogatory in any way.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:18 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Marranos means swine or pigs.


In today's Spanish.

In 14th/15th century, however, it was clear that converted Jews were meant by this - same in history today.

Portuguese marranos, who at first immigrated to Amsterdam (end of 17th century) and from there to Hamburg (about 1700), were known as marranos in Holland, but as Portuguese in Hamburg - as an aside here. And only shorly aftwards, they were 'Jews'.


Historians do not agree on an unique meaning for the word "marranos".

Another explanation is that the word comes from the semitic expression "Maran atha" meaning "the Lord comes".

Btw, Baruch Spinoza, the philosopher, was from Portuguese "Marrano" ancestry.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:48 am
Francis wrote:

Historians do not agree on an unique meaning for the word "marranos".


That might very well be.

I only did a smaller work about navigation during the times of the conquistadores and thus noticed the mentioning of marranos in the decribed manner in literature and (secondary) sources.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 08:56 am
Well, Jespah came closest to answering my question. Do Jews in Europe today consider "marrano" to be an offensive term?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:10 am
Eva wrote:
Well, Jespah came closest to answering my question. Do Jews in Europe today consider "marrano" to be an offensive term?


I'm not sure, how offensive it was considered in centuries before. (Any source for that?)

As far as I know, it's used as an historic term term today, like in e.g. "Israël S. Révah: Les Marranes, in: Revue des Études Juives 118, 1959, pages 29-77" or "Cecil Roth: A History of the Marranos, New York, 1974" - both written by renowned Jewish historians.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:17 am
I've never encountered the term "marranos" in New Mexico, really the only term I have heard is "conversos" who in my limited experiece call themselves "chicanos"
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:17 am
And as far as I know, no, it's not considered offensive.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:19 am
That's interesting.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:19 am
Eva wrote:
That's interesting.


Why?
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:44 pm
Well, Walter...speaking as an Irish-American, I can't imagine that the Irish, for example, would ever get past it.

Of course, we're always looking for a fight, dontcha know. Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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