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Did the US commit genocide against the American Indians??

 
 
John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:09 am
Thomas wrote:

Nobody in America ever tried to destroy the Irish in America, in whole or in part.


No, technically nobody tried to "destroy" them.

Besides, I was being sarcastic when I made that comment.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:32 am
Yes you were sarcastic, but the direction of your sarcasm was to ridicule Debra_Law's reference to a genocide by the state of California. The story she linked to, unlike your sarcastic remark about the Irish, does match the international legal definition of the term genocide.
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:39 am
Ok, so the governer of california is guilty of attempted genocide. He does not represent the entire country.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:43 am
That's correct, but it's also a point I already conceded. If you define "genocide" restrictively enough, and restrict your inquiry to the federal government exclusively, it is defensible to say that the US did not commit genocide against the Native Americans.
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:49 am
well that's settled, carry on
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:56 am
John Creasy is correct in saying that the Irish were treated horribly, even though genocide isn't the proper term to describe the unconscionable conditions in which they were forced to live.

In one of Ken Burns films on the history of America, the idea of manifest destiny is interwoven throughout each era of this country. The governor of Illinois or the mayor of Chicago (can't remember which) said that the Irish should be shot. He implied that genocide should be used against the Irish. This attitude also applied to anyone who was poor. Oddly, he didn't go on to say who would take their place in all the dirty jobs that were given to the Irish.
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:01 am
Diane wrote:
John Creasy is correct in saying that the Irish were treated horribly, even though genocide isn't the proper term to describe the unconscionable conditions in which they were forced to live.

In one of Ken Burns films on the history of America, the idea of manifest destiny is interwoven throughout each era of this country. The governor of Illinois or the mayor of Chicago (can't remember which) said that the Irish should be shot. He implied that genocide should be used against the Irish. This attitude also applied to anyone who was poor. Oddly, he didn't go on to say who would take their place in all the dirty jobs that were given to the Irish.


Amen sister
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:06 am
Diane wrote:
John Creasy is correct in saying that the Irish were treated horribly, even though genocide isn't the proper term to describe the unconscionable conditions in which they were forced to live.

Would you say it was as bad as what California did to its Indians in Debra's description? Would you describe as a genocide what happened in California? (My own answers would be `no' and `yes', but I'm always willing to be persuaded.)
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:26 am
John C., I am interested in learning more about you.
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:27 am
Mapleleaf wrote:
John C., I am interested in learning more about you.


What would you like to know??
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Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 03:57 pm
section of the country, rural or urban, age range, publications you read
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 05:00 pm
Thomas wrote:
That's correct, but it's also a point I already conceded. If you define "genocide" restrictively enough, and restrict your inquiry to the federal government exclusively, it is defensible to say that the US did not commit genocide against the Native Americans.


It would, however, be a not unreasonable statement that the sub rosa agenda of the BIA and the United States Cavalry was often genocidal in character. The history is a sordid one, and by and large, the majority of Americans for the most of our history would have been content if the government had actually accomplished genocide.

Hitler did not commit genocide by your criterion, because he failed to kill all the Jews.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 05:56 pm
Thomas, of course my answer to your questions would be "no" and "yes." I wasn't comparing the treatment of immigrants to genocide. It didn't even come close. Irish, Poles, Jews, Italians were horribly abused economically and were considered less than human. Many of them didn't survive because of not having enough to feed their families and even children were put to work in conditions that would raise objections from the poorest among us today. That was a mind-set that rationalized abuse, but it wasn't genocide.

The government's policy toward American Indians was genocide in that they were encouraged to obliterate any of the tribes that stood in the way of white settlers or of tribes that were on top of rich lodes of gold. Their cultures were purposely eliminated to insure total eradication for the benefit of whites who wanted to take advantage of the riches to be found on land the Indians inhabited.

I have included an article from a newsletter called High Country News. The article is basically about the continued use of place names that glorify some of the worst offenders. The excerpt I included gives a good example of why some would call the slaughter of American Indians genocide.

Link to High Country News article
http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=16100
"Forget the romanticized image of the cavalry rushing in to save settlers from Native savagery. When Forsyth's troops descended on the encampment at Wounded Knee, they attacked with wagon-mounted Hotchkiss guns, cannon-sized early versions of the machine gun, which could fire 50 two-pound explosive shells per minute. The bodies of some fleeing women and children were discovered as far as two miles from the camp. In his dual biography of George Crook and Geronimo, historian Peter Aleshire documents instances of babies "thrown into the bonfires of burning wickiups, or dashed against stones," and of soldiers who "cut off the private parts of women, and made purses of them."
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 06:42 pm
Mapleleaf wrote:
section of the country, rural or urban, age range, publications you read


Upstate NY, suburban, 27, I just read online news and as many books as I can.

Actually I live on former Iroquois land. Mohawk to be more specific. Many streets, schools, etc. where I live have Indian names.

On this map, I live right about where the eastern border of the Mohawk territory crosses the Mohawk River(the one that goes east to west and runs directly into the Hudson).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iroquois_6_Nations_map_c1720.png
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John Creasy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 06:50 pm
Quote:
The government's policy toward American Indians was genocide in that they were encouraged to obliterate any of the tribes that stood in the way of white settlers or of tribes that were on top of rich lodes of gold. Their cultures were purposely eliminated to insure total eradication for the benefit of whites who wanted to take advantage of the riches to be found on land the Indians inhabited


I'm not sure this is completely accurate. I don't think you can say that ALL government leaders throughout the centuries adhered to this view. Many wanted to coexist with the natives. There were many periods of relative peace between Indians and whites. You have people like Custer and Andrew Jackson who do fit your description, but they were only a piece of the puzzle.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:12 pm
Custer was a great, braying jackass who got what he deserved, but who unfortunately got a few hundred poor immigrants in Federal blue coats killed in the process. He was not responsible for policy, but he certainly enthusiastically applied any policy he saw as authorizing the slaughter of as many Indians as possible.

Of course, if you're ever in Monroe, Michigan, i'd advise you not to publicly express such an opinion.
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2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:36 pm
The more known "Trail Of Tears" crosses the Mississippi about 35 miles north of me, another trail {Benge's route} passed within a mile or two of my town.

http://www.rosecity.net/tears/trail/map.html

One set of my Great, Great Grandparents were both full blooded Cherokee, we have pictures of them when they were very old...my grandmother has collected some data on them, but it's fairly vague.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 02:56 am
Setanta wrote:
Hitler did not commit genocide by your criterion, because he failed to kill all the Jews.

That's why it's not my criterion -- it's John Creasy's and Webster's. The international legal definition Debra cited makes much more sense to me.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 06:53 am
Quote:
a county where some of our neighbors still refer to Indians as "Prairie Afros" and call curly buffalo grass "nigger wool," and where the local paper ran an ad for part-time help that unblushingly asked for an "Indian" to do some menial chores.

quoted from High Country News an environmental newspaper covering the 11 Western States.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:57 pm
Genocide, as defined by international law, is probably not the word to use when describing the atrocities commited against the American Indians. I'll give you that one.

It is true that, for the most part, the US government did not publically approve of genocide, although you can find many instances of tacit understanding by the government of the fact that "elimination" would take place.

There are also many instances of honorable men who strongly disagreed and refused to take part, such as Captain Silas Soule at Sand Creek.

So, OK, no genocide, just brutality unconfined by morals or any social dictates, that took place with regularity in the history of the US. Because it doesn't fit the technical definition of genocide does not make it any less horrific, which is what I am concerned about when definition takes the place of realism, or of what is acceptable and what is not based on the definition of a word.

Here is a link with excerpts, including the outrage expressed by the public (to a certain extent) and the courageous acts of honor, leading to the death of Soule, by a few decent men who were there at the time.

Quote:
http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/chivington.html

Quote:
According to John S. Smith, Colonel Chivington knew these Indians to be peaceful before the massacre. Smith witnessed, as did helpless Indian mothers and fathers, young children having their sex organs cut away. U.S. soldiers mutilated Native American women, cutting away their breasts and removing all other sex organs. After the Massacre, soldiers displayed the women's severed body parts on their hats and stretched them over their saddle-bows while riding in the ranks. The sex organs of every male were removed in the most grotesque manner. One soldier boasted that he would make a tobacco pouch with the removed privates of White Antelope, a respected elder. Conner witnessed a soldier displaying the body parts of a woman on a stick. The fingers of Indians were cut off to get at the rings on them. Connor remembered a baby only a few months old who had been hidden in the feed box of a wagon for protection. When the soldiers discovered the baby some time later, the baby was thrown onto the frozen ground to die. In going over the site the next day, it was noted that every corpse was mutilated in some way, and scalped.

Two other men, Robert Bent and James Beckwourth were forced to ride with Chivington that morning. They recorded similar images. Beckwourth noted that before the massacre, White Antelope (age 75) ran out to meet the soldiers. He came running out to meet the command, holding up his hands and saying Stop! Stop! He spoke in as plain English as I can. He stopped and folded his arms until shot down. Bent remembered seeing the shooting of a little girl carrying a white flag. He also remembered seeing an Indian woman on the ground whose leg had been shattered by a shell. As she lay helpless, a soldier drew his saber, breaking the arm she had risen in defense. She then rolled over on her other side. The soldier did not leave until breaking her other arm with his saber, whereupon he left without killing her. Bent saw a pregnant woman who had been cut open and disemboweled. Her unborn child lay mutilated almost beyond human recognition beside her. Quite a number of mothers were slain; still clinging to their babies. Such was the scene that cold gray morning at Sand Creek, November 29, 1864.


(Afterward, when the public learned of the atrocities, Chivington was brought up on charges. His best friend, Captain Silas Soule had refused to take part in the massacre and had agreed to be a witness at Chivington's trialÂ…)

Quote:
Soule himself could not be a witness at any of the investigations, because less than a week after his release he was shot from behind and killed on the streets of Denver. Although Chivington was eventually brought up on court-martial charges for his involvement in the massacre, he was no longer in the U.S. Army and could therefore not be punished. No criminal charges were ever filed against him. An Army judge, however, publicly stated that Sand Creek was "a cowardly and cold-blooded slaughter, sufficient to cover its perpetrators with indelible infamy, and the face of every American with shame and indignation."


So it goes. Today, I think the brutality is still there, strong as ever, just more subtle and sophisticated. But I digress.
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