Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

death
Twyvel, what's this you MAY have other bodies...other levels of illusion to work through..the transpersonal...or mind alone...? Are you suggesting something like reincarnation, the many lives or levels to work through to Nirvana? That would be better than the Christian afterlife, but not much.
And more puzzling: "awareness is nothing".
As I (aalmost) see it, there is ONLY awareness (and all objects of awareness are empty, in their continuous movement and change) with no individual subject to be aware of all the emptiness (or nothing if you will). Through these eyes (metaphorical Atman perhaps) the cosmos (metaphorical Brahma perhaps) becomes self-aware. Or something like that

Do any of you agnostics have children? What do you tell a child when he asks if there is a God, where he goes when he dies, if there is a spiritual force of good or bad (i.e. God and the Devil), if prayer works?

death
Snood, my child never asked; he never felt there was a problem because his parents did not act as if there were. Besides, what would have me do, lie to him so that he would feel good? That's how we generate people who must live by myths, distractions and drugs--in order to "feel good". If we are going to be able to be "ubermenches", to have the courage to live life as it is, we must start early. When my child was old enough to want to talk to me about such existential things--he didn't so much as ask me for the truth as tell what he thought--I told him what I thought, but stressed that such matters were not such that I or anyone could be certain of our answers. He accepted this easily.

I seem to be wasting my time askng questions here but wtf.

Why is it that some have a great deal of difficulty thinking about an after life sans God?

Does anyone really believve that there will come a time that mankind will ever agree %100 on religion?

God is for people that just can't handle reality ...... to teach children to place their trust in the imaginary is admitting to an ignorance of what is real.

death
Gelisgesti,

Where do you go after you die? You go to the happiest place you've been to on earth!

That's your heaven!

Misti, if you believe that in your heart then it wil be so. Be carefull how you define 'happy'.

Try exchanging the word 'love' for the word 'God' ..... love is not imaginary.


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Though I speak with the tongues of angels,

If I have not love...

My words would resound with but a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy...

And understand all mysteries...

and all knowledge...

And though I have all faith

So that I could remove mountains,

if I have not love…

I am nothing.

Love is patient, full of goodness;

Love tolerates all things,

Aspires to all things,

Love never dies,

while the prophecies shall be done away,

tongues shall be silenced,

knowledge shall fade...

thus then shall linger only

faith, hope, and love...

but the greatest of these...

is love.

Gel., to me love and God are the same thing!

I have no children, but I will give your questions a try anyway.



I would tell them we really don't know. I would tell them that the people who guess the various holy books describe a true GOD may be right, but that a careful reading of them have convinced me that the probability is that they are merely mythologies. I would tell them that in my opinion, the various gods being offered on planet Earth may all be myths -- that there may be no gods -- or that there are gods, but that it appears we have no way of verifying that to be the case.



I would tell them we really don't know. At some point you will die -- it is the natural thing to do and it should not be feared in an unreasonable way. I would tell them to concern themselves with what is happening here on Earth during this lifetime -- and not concern themselves with what, if anything, happens next.




I would tell them we really don't know about any of these things -- and that speculation about them is foolish. I would try to set an example for them as to how to lead a decent life, borrowing ideas from wherever necessary, and tell them to lead that kind of life and not worry about boogeymen, devils, or gods.

As for prayer -- well, I would probably tell them that praying and hoping may work -- but "doing" definitely does. I would suggest they stick with the "doing" -- and leave the praying and hoping to others.

JLNobody

I may have screwed up including you in that earlier remark. Can't remember what you said that prompted me to include you -- but I neglected to do any quoting in my posting. Hate when I forget to do that. Just disregard what I said -- and if I come into conflict with what you have to say later, I'll be sure to be specific.

JLNobody

I was thinking of spiritual bodies, which may become apparent when this so called physical one dies moving the awareness into another illusion or manifestation as it were. (and they can become visible to some while still retaining a physical body).
Not my main focus, except to say that when one knows the nondual nature of awareness, one is ONE with all, and yet transcends all, realizing manifestations for what they are; not real.

If I see/perceive aliens and spirits they are an aspect of me in that they are in my awareness, and the awareness is me.



I think we are in concurrence. I'm trying to put is in concrete terms, although 'concrete' might not be the best word to use, perhaps in terms of experience.

Awareness is nothing in that it cannot be observed. When I ask who's observing this internal dialogue or thoughts and mental images, when I go looking for the looker all I find is objects IN awareness not the awareness. Of course I am using the awareness to look for the awareness of the thoughts so it's an insane mission.

Experientially, through reason and observation there is actually 'nothing' looking at this monitor, as we both agree awareness cannot be observed, cannot observe itself, because there is nothing to observe. So right here right now, looking at the words on this screen nothing is observing something. And the question is not only, How can 'nothing' observe something?, but, How can 'nothing' be separate from something? I.e. if awareness is nothing then there is no space between it and what it is aware of, an object, mental image, thought etc. So it appears impossible for awareness to be distinct and separate from objects in its observation, which are (potentially) the entire universe including the body and the sense of 'self', (ego/body).

So we arrive at what you are saying; that the observed and the observer, the awareness and what it is aware of are one and the same, and hence there is only awareness, the universe as consciousness observing itself,..........nondualism.

So dualism is actually impossible ( or more correctly an illusion) since there is no subject IN awareness. The body and thoughts are perceived objects yet they are mistakenly taken to be a subject observing objects.

In dualism; form a dualist perspective, the 'real' subject as awareness is nothing, (observable).

In nondualism this 'nothing' becomes the observable universe.


And yet how can an object/thought BE awareness? But then how can it not be?

Well, thanks, Frank - at least you tried to answer my questions, and didn't attack me. That apparently is a feat for some.

A few questions were directed to the agnostic members of the forum, which I do not consider myself, if there are any questions for the realist members that have faith in faith but not in religion fire away as I don't consider a question an attack.

awareness
As usual, Twyvel, I find your ruminations enlightening. One experiences not awareness, as such, but only the "objects" of awareness. The Buddhist literature says "All things enlighten me." I think this is since "I" AM my experience and experience is always OF some content, that content IS me (all things show me who I am). The Hindus also say, as I've mentioned before, "Tat tvam asi"--thou art that. There is no space between us and our experience. Life is truly non-dualistic. And since dualism is actually illusory, it IS a kind of insanity, when we behave as if it were actual. When this is realized there is no need for Gods. It's wonderful that You, the true you (i.e., CosmicBigYou, not littleyou, the separate/surrounded lonely little ego) are all there is. Thank you for reminding me.

death
Imust leave town until next Friday. I hope this interesting discussion continues. See you then

Take care JL ......

The Stairway to Heaven "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." Albert Einstein

Just reading...and thinking.

Where do you go when you die? Probably the same place that you "go" when you are in deep sleep, anesthetized, or suffering from severe brain trauma or disease: if the brain is not functioning to generate a conscious state, "you" simply do not exist. Yes, I've been there.

It would be nice to believe that our consciousness survives death to reunite with loved ones, experience perfect happiness in paradise or as part of a universal consciousness, reincarnate, or move on to a higher plane of existence and new experiences, but I see no justification for expecting any sort of awareness after the brain ceases to function.

If we're wrong, Frank, I hope to see you in the afterlife - but I cannot imagine spending eternity with some of the cretins with whom we share this existence, especially those who abuse children.

There are many souls/spirits that never mature in this life, either because they die very young or they turn in on themselves and their growth is stunted. Are there billions of infantile spirits drifting around heaven like fireflies?

What about those who choose (or are compelled by mental problems and/or life experiences) to harm others. What happens to them? Punishment, exorcism of the bad stuff, shunning by the "good" spirits, or acceptance of the bad with the good and understanding for what they did and why?

What about people whose minds deteriorate due to senility, Alzheimer's, or other diseases? Are their memories and mental acuity magically restored?

And what about the souls/spirits of chimpanzees and other sentient animals? Where do they go? Will the universal consciousness include the memories of billions of bunnies being eaten by foxes?

twyvel, I do not agree that my conscious awareness is "nothing." It is certainly real to me, the effects of its existence are observable by others, and the state of consciousness is as measurable by scientific methods as are quarks and electrons. There is still much to learn, but science has come a long way in the understanding of consciousness and brain functions.

My body is physically distinct from other objects in the universe, and my awareness encompasses only those limited areas of the universe that I can directly perceive or learn about through the transmission of the perceptions of others. If there is a universal awareness, how come we are not universally aware of it?

Unlike you, I cannot trivialize the joys and suffering of others by claiming that they are "nothing" and do not exist as independent conscious spirits. We experience love and pain because we were born in the flesh as human beings. I cannot imagine why anyone would invent the perceptions of a reality in which so many beings suffer needlessly. It only makes sense if the universe and the life in it evolved without conscious intention.

I understand that you believe otherwise, but I have no reason to doubt that my perception of reality is a reasonably accurate representation of an objective universe made up of particles of matter (which may be waves of energy or vibrating strings but are not "nothing") that obey physical laws to produce the patterns of photons impinging on my retina.

Doug, who - or what - put us in Einstein's prison in the first place? Yes, nature can be beautiful. It can also be cruel and ugly. Why are there so many defects, diseases, and parasites? Why should so many suffer at the hands of those who would keep them imprisoned?