In all honesty (part 2)

****WARNING**** CUT-RATE NIMH JOB AHEAD****WARNING****

OK, I am soooooo tired of this stuff. Especially because it goes around and around and skirts any and all real issues while focusing on stupid little things. This is my attempt to do a be-all and end-all post that can be pointed to by anyone anytime this comes up so we can all MOVE ON already!!

Hubris? Why yes. But I'm gonna try.

OK, first of all:

1.) Is Momma Angel the reason that partyjohn et al signed up?

Let's look at the dates.

Partyjohn joined A2K December 10th, 2005. He joined his own forum -- that is, since he was the very first member, that forum started on December 29th, 2005.

I'm_the_other_one: Joined A2K December 13th, 2005, and referred to partyjohn in her first post.:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1725918&highlight=#1725918

Partyjohn claims she's his sister (not sure if actual or metaphorical) here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1726137#1726137

I'm_the_other_one joined the other forum December 30th, 2005 (as my-2-punkins -- she is the second member, after partyjohn).

Momma Angel joined A2K July 12th, 2005. She joined the other forum December 31st, 2005.

Conclusion: I think that partyjohn started his forum AFTER being on A2K for a while. He invited his "sister" and Momma Angel to join it, and they did, one day and 2 days later, respectively.

2.) Did Momma Angel ask people to come to A2K?

Yes. This has been pointed to 20,000 times, but in the interests of nimh-y-ness, will re-post two of the most pertinent:

Momma Angel wrote:

Hi Everyone!

How has God blessed me today? He sent me some real angels! Some know me from A2K, some don't. It's getting rough on that forum. The non-believers are really rebelling against God's word. I think those of you that post on A2K realize that.

I am asking if any of you do go to A2K and post in the Spirituality & Religion Forums, please DO NOT post in the threads that the atheists start that clearly are to mock the Lord! If we stay out of those threads, they will die from their own evil.

And those of you that do not post on Able2know.com, I encourage you to do so. We are in a spiritual war today. We need as many Christians as we can possibly get to stand united against the father of lies.

I want to see this site grow to be something so glorifying to God! We can all do that by finding others to come here. But, please, please, do not PM or directly ask anyone on A2K to join SpiritWarriors. That's against the TOS. I am in contact with a lot of the Christians there and I am telling them about this site to get them to come here.

We have to put forth our best Christlike armor we can my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Beast knows that his time is short and he grows angry.

I am so blessed to be able to be a part of this site and I am so sorry I have't been visiting much, but I definitely will be from now on!

Love in Christ,

Momma Angel thank you [/b]

First, note what I italicized. "Here" is partyjohn's forum -- not A2K. She is talking about bringing people to THAT forum, and making IT "grow to be something so glorifying to God." Not A2K.

Momma Angel wrote:

Little Mouse,

It's not me doing anything. It is He that is within me. Like I said, half the time I'm not sure what I even typed. Your input is invaluable on A2K. We need to encourage all Christians to register and start posting in the Spirituality & Religion Forums. I guess if Set thinks I am recruiting Christians I might as well start doing it!

So, tell everyone. I am telling everyone about this site and trying to help get more to register. We can be a mighty army for the Lord.[/b]

3.) Does it matter?

Yes and no. It matters in that the rhetoric was so markedly different from what she was claiming here; she seemed so interested in spreading God's word but when called on it insisted that wasn't why she was here, and then was shown to have been very much thinking and speaking in those terms within a week.

But here's the thing -- the part that doesn't seem to be grasped -- that it is the REACTION to all of this that is most troubling for many of us. The refusal to truly take responsibility, while saying responsibility is being taken and why can't we just leave her alone. Nimh used the word "dissembling" -- that's perfect. This whole thing could have been nipped in the bud when the statements on the other forum were first quoted here with something like:

Oh, man, that's embarrassing. I will say that when I first came here, I was interested in spreading God's word. That was why I came, and what I wanted to accomplish. But you know what? In my time here, I've had my eyes opened to a lot of things, and I can honestly say that my intentions now are to listen and learn. I have my own beliefs, of course, but I no longer think that everyone who thinks differently from me is allied with the father of lies. There are people here who make me mad, sure, but the rhetoric I used was way too sweeping. Sorry.

That would have made such a huge difference.

But that's not what happened. There is an endless loop of evasions and denials of wrong-doing, when wrong-doing per se isn't even the point. For many of us, whether Christians were being recruited is a side-note -- not great, but not the main point, and obviously if it was the intention it was not successful, so really, whatever. It's the dissembling.

Now, do I think recognition of the real issue is ever going to happen? No. But I do think that the point of making progress rather than endlessly circling around moot issues and talking past each other has long since been passed.

Total story so far:

A Christian named Momma Angel joins A2K. She meets, at A2K, a couple of other Christians named partyjohn and I'm_the_other_one. Partyjohn starts his own website after trying and failing at some evangelist-type stuff here. He invites Momma Angel and his "sister". They accept the invitation. Momma Angel, frustrated by how things are going on A2K, says some stuff on spiritwarrior about armies and spiritual wars and such that will come back to haunt her. NOTHING OF IMPORT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN TERMS OF TAKING OVER A2K. The haunting statements are found, dissembling commences, the place goes apeshit.

Can we puh-leeeeze get past the apeshit phase, and just move on? Isn't anyone else bored?

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Indeed. Cheers Soz.

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Indeed. Maybe the nonsense can stop and go on to other topics. Time to put away the knives.

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Yeh - whut Soz said.

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I think Nimh would be proud, Soz.

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Hey Soz,

Considering that its supposed to be a nimh-job, I have to add that I think it's incomplete or incorrect on one or two counts.

First off, you write:

sozobe wrote:

First, note what I italicized. "Here" is partyjohn's forum -- not A2K. She is talking about bringing people to THAT forum, and making IT "grow to be something so glorifying to God." Not A2K.

Though you are right, now that I re-read it, that the talk of making the site glorifying to God refers to SW rather than A2K - sorry for having asserted otherwise, Momma - she also very much talked about bringing people to A2K. I think these bits are quite clear:

"those of you that do not post on Able2know.com, I encourage you to do so. We are in a spiritual war today. We need as many Christians as we can possibly get to stand united against the father of lies."

"Your input is invaluable on A2K. We need to encourage all Christians to register and start posting in the Spirituality & Religion Forums."

So yes, she was, at that time, trying both to bring SWers to A2K and vice versa.

Though I think, like you, that the recruitment allegation is a side-show, the attempt was there. A problem? Well, its not illegal or anything. The problem I think was mostly one of deception - like you said, that her rhetoric there was so markedly different from what she was doing or purporting to do and be here. That creates the feeling that many have expressed about having been deceived or betrayed, or being led by the nose, or whatever.

My second disagreement is that this resentment about deception etc only refers to the dissembling afterwards, to the bendy denials about the recruitment stuff. Judging on some of the posts it's more about the impression that there were two MA's from the start: the "I just want to learn" MA and the "I'm in a spiritual war on A2K", the side that many always suspected but she always denied.

Thats also why the answer that you suggest would have nipped all the bad vibes in the bud straight away wouldnt have worked, either. Imagine she really would have said this:

I will say that when I first came here, I was interested in spreading God's word. But you know what? In my time here, I've had my eyes opened to a lot of things, and I can honestly say that my intentions now are to listen and learn.

Considering she joined in July last year, and was still encouraging Christians to join A2K because "we are in a spiritual war" in mid-January, who would have believed that an assertion of such a mental transformation would suddenly be true two weeks after that? I for one wouldn't believe it for a second.

Am I adding all this because I care a lot and carry a deep, emotional grudge about this thing, like Tico said? Nah, I've become bored too. But hey, a nimh job is a nimh job - so if we're summarising the facts once and for all, then I'm anal enough to complete it ... ;-)

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J_B wrote:

I think Nimh would be proud, Soz.

Sorry .... I do think she did well and I'm flattered by the whole concept of a "nimh job", but I was too anal to let it stand as it was ...

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I never said she wasn't trying to swing people to A2K -- it's right there in the second thing I posted. Not to mention this part:

sozobe wrote:

2.) Did Momma Angel ask people to come to A2K?

Yes. This has been pointed to 20,000 times, but in the interests of nimh-y-ness, will re-post two of the most pertinent:

(emphasis in original...)

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the next poll

soz or nimh - who is the most nimhy?

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Hello All,

Frankly, I have to say I was ROTFLMAO when I read this comment about the perceived war. I just have to laugh at these "Sprirtual Warriors" and their call to arms. They crack me up!

Sad little creatures in dire need to get a life.

I think Momma needs to get laid.

Anon

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ehBeth...

In terms of the mental transformation, that's fair. The main point I was making is that for many of us it is not the narrow issue of the recruitment per se, but the dichotomy that was exposed and how she reacted to that exposure. Some kind of ownership of it would have helped, rather than variations of "I stand by what I said..."

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nimh wrote:

Though I think, like you, that the recruitment allegation is a side-show, the attempt was there. A problem? Well, its not illegal or anything. The problem I think was mostly one of deception - like you said, that her rhetoric there was so markedly different from what she was doing or purporting to do and be here. That creates the feeling that many have expressed about having been deceived or betrayed, or being led by the nose, or whatever.

My second disagreement is that this resentment about deception etc only refers to the dissembling afterwards, to the bendy denials about the recruitment stuff. Judging on some of the posts it's more about the impression that there were two MA's from the start: the "I just want to learn" MA and the "I'm in a spiritual war on A2K", the side that many always suspected but she always denied.

I have stayed out of this fray since others had already expressed similar view to mine. I would like to point out however that I had already had my fill of MA's deceptive manner long before the current fracas.

mesquite wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
I merely asked a question. What if it was that way? I didn't ask you to believe it. I just wanted to know if that was the way they intended it, what would you then have to say.

To me it is about credibility. When you associate yourself with sites that have credibility issues that you are aware of, your own credibility becomes an issue. Deception is an odd tactic for a group that touts having the high moral ground.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1703166#1703166

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Anon-Voter wrote:

Hello All,

Frankly, I have to say I was ROTFLMAO when I read this comment about the perceived war. I just have to laugh at these "Sprirtual Warriors" and their call to arms. They crack me up!

Sad little creatures in dire need to get a life.

I think Momma needs to get laid.
Anon

Anon, I'm shocked! That's what men always say about women.

BBB Shocked

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BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Anon-Voter wrote:
Hello All,

Frankly, I have to say I was ROTFLMAO when I read this comment about the perceived war. I just have to laugh at these "Sprirtual Warriors" and their call to arms. They crack me up!

Sad little creatures in dire need to get a life.

I think Momma needs to get laid.
Anon

Anon, I'm shocked! That's what men always say about women.

BBB

Yea, it's sexist ... which if you know me, I'm not! But in Momma's case, I think it's true!! Maybe we should post in craigslist for her under "Sex Emergency - Please contact immediately! Laughing

Anon

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Anon

Anon-Voter wrote:

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
Hello All,
Frankly, I have to say I was ROTFLMAO when I read this comment about the perceived war. I just have to laugh at these "Sprirtual Warriors" and their call to arms. They crack me up!
Sad little creatures in dire need to get a life.
I think Momma needs to get laid.
Anon

Anon, I'm shocked! That's what men always say about women.
BBB

Yea, it's sexist ... which if you know me, I'm not! But in Momma's case, I think it's true!! Maybe we should post in craigslist for her under "Sex Emergency - Please contact immediately!

Anon

Careful there, Anon. You might get reported to the moderators for impuning a celestial virgin's purity.

BBB

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Well, I was willing to let soz' post be the "be-all and end-all post" on this matter, but since nimh decided to clear up something that's was bugging him, I guess I can do the same.

Setanta wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
No, I did not. That is not true. If you believe it is true then provide evidence of such.

Check the dates Setanta.

If you're going to lie like that, you are the one who needs to check the dates.

MOAN, on January 12th, wrote:
Hi Everyone!

How has God blessed me today? He sent me some real angels! Some know me from A2K, some don't. It's getting rough on that forum. The non-believers are really rebelling against God's word. I think those of you that post on A2K realize that.

I am asking if any of you do go to A2K and post in the Spirituality & Religion Forums, please DO NOT post in the threads that the atheists start that clearly are to mock the Lord! If we stay out of those threads, they will die from their own evil.

And those of you that do not post on Able2know.com, I encourage you to do so. We are in a spiritual war today. We need as many Christians as we can possibly get to stand united against the father of lies.

I want to see this site grow to be something so glorifying to God! We can all do that by finding others to come here. But, please, please, do not PM or directly ask anyone on A2K to join SpiritWarriors. That's against the TOS. I am in contact with a lot of the Christians there and I am telling them about this site to get them to come here.

We have to put forth our best Christlike armor we can my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Beast knows that his time is short and he grows angry.

I am so blessed to be able to be a part of this site and I am so sorry I have't been visiting much, but I definitely will be from now on!

Then, three days later . . .

MOAN, on January 15th wrote:
Little Mouse,

It's not me doing anything. It is He that is within me. Like I said, half the time I'm not sure what I even typed. Your input is invaluable on A2K. We need to encourage all Christians to register and start posting in the Spirituality & Religion Forums. I guess if Set thinks I am recruiting Christians I might as well start doing it!

So, tell everyone. I am telling everyone about this site and trying to help get more to register. We can be a mighty army for the Lord.

It is obvious from the dates that you did indeed begin recruiting people before-hand. You also have an IM address in your profile (or once did)--so in addition to that site, you have e-mail and IM as methods of contacting people and recruiting them.

I have no doubt that you avail yourself of both methods--and in a post in another thread you have admitted to using e-mail for the purpose. You only admitted to the lie about recruiting at that site because you were busted. I have no doubt that you would blithely lie about using e-mail and IM for such a purpose.

As i mentioned to you earlier, your credibility is shot.

I fail to see where you have shown anything by the dates of the posts you cited. You show a post dated 1/12/06 where MA attempted to recruit at that other site, but what you don't show is a denial from her occurring after that date.

So, what exactly did you mean by: "It is obvious from the dates that you did indeed begin recruiting people before-hand." ... because it's so not-obvious based on your post.

You admit there is evidence of recruitment at only one site, and you've provided proof of recruitment at that site on 1/12/06 .... so where is the proof of her recruiting before you made your accusation, which I understand was on 12/31/05? You seem convinced that she attempted to recruit before you accused her of doing so, yet it appears you can offer no proof of that accusation, and have only a gut feeling.

Persons with only gut feelings should not accuse others of lying, lest they be accused of doing the same.

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Anon-Voter wrote:

I think Momma needs to get laid.

Anon

What an idiotic thing to say. Then again, maybe I need a good lay, myself. (hmmm...)

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and by all accounts, it seems that only 2 new members were added to A2K through this. Rolling Eyes

I am hoping that this thread dies by page 20. I would not be surprised, however, if it runs to 200 or beyond.

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echi wrote:

Anon-Voter wrote:
I think Momma needs to get laid.

Anon

What an idiotic thing to say. Then again, maybe I need a good lay, myself. (hmmm...)

See! Not such a bad thought, eh!

Anon

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The only illuminating element of this thread is the reinforcement of the fact that intolerance is monotonously the same, from whatever corner it arises.

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In all honesty (part 2)

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