Momma Angel wrote:dlowan wrote:Of course, this:
"Given that fine christian minds and hearts do NOT see the bible as supporting civil rights for gay people, what is your explanation for those of you who DO? What do you think is the difference between you?"
was a typo, and was corrected in the post. MA quoted from the unedited post.
The post in MAs quote should read:
"Given that fine christian minds and hearts do NOT see the bible as forbidding such civil rights as marriage and ordination for gay people, (SUCH a joke, that one, considering how many clergy are gay, but nemmind) what is your explanation for those of you who DO? What do you think is the difference between you?"
To be honest with you dlowan, I feel like I am being baited. If I am in error, then I sincerely apologize. I told you that I would answer your questions and I will.
dlowan, I can only tell you what I believe the Bible says. It says that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God. I didn't think homosexuality was right before I became a Christian. The thought of it, quite honestly, turned my stomach. I cannot tell you why some feel that the Bible does not say it is wrong. I could guess, of course. But, I don't know the real reason why some think it is ok and some don't.
MA....again you avoid the meart of the question.
Forget about this voting furphy you have dragged in.
I am talking about your beliefs.
I aak the questions again.
Why do you think that you, and numerous other christians, choose to adhere to the parts of the bible that condemn homosexuality, rather than the parts which enjoin you to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love thy neighbour as thyself, not go casting stones etc...?
dlowan, it says in the Old Testament and the New Testament that this is wrong. I am trying my best to do unto others, dlowan. C'mon, give me a bit of credit, ok? I backed off my firm stance of flat out voting no to saying I'd stay out of it because I recognized someone else's rights were involved here. Why is that not good enough? Must I change my opinion completely before I am just left to what I believe or feel?
Given that fine christian minds and hearts do NOT see the bible as forbidding such civil rights as marriage and ordination for gay people, (SUCH a joke, that one, considering how many clergy are gay, but nemmind) what is your explanation for those of you who DO? What do you think is the difference between you?
I'm not sure what you mean by fine Christian minds and hearts here, dlowan. Do you mean fine in the respect that they don't agree with my point of view or fine as in what? I don't know what the difference is, dlowan. I really don't. There are so many different interpretations of things, as you well know. I only know things for sure for myself.
Why do YOU interpret the bible in this way.
I interpret it that way because when I read it, that's what I understand it to say. Just like I would read, "See Dick run."
So, you do not consider those of us who oppose your views as inspired by the "father of lies" against whom you are in a spiritual war?
dlowan,
And this is exactly why I am feeling baited, dlowan. I have made this comment to someone and it seems to have found it's way to the surface. That's fine. I made the comment. I stand by it. Yes, I believe there is a spiritual warfare going on. However, I don't know to what extent it is. And yes, I do believe that for some (and Doktor S, forgive me but you have professed yourself as a Satanist so I would have to say that you apply) there is a spiritual warfare going on. But, even if that is the case, it doesn't mean I have to be cruel or nasty to anyone because of it.
I have in private conversations said things about others in frustration or anger, yes. I won't deny that. It doesn't make it right, but I have done it. So, if there is anything else you want to ask if I think or have said or whatever, lay it out there, dlowan. I have no problem with addressing it.
MA said:
To be honest with you dlowan, I feel like I am being baited. If I am in error, then I sincerely apologize. I told you that I would answer your questions and I will.
No, you are not being "baited", you are being asked to answer specific questions re your belief that some segments of the population should be denied normal rights, as you said you are happy to do.
I observe that, whenever you are asked to give reasons for your beliefs, especially when your "it's in the bible" rationale is challenged by other possible interpretations of how to view the bible's words, you believe you are being persecuted. I have no control over your reactions to being treated like anyone else here who is asked to justify their beliefs.
MA wrote:
dlowan, I can only tell you what I believe the Bible says. It says that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God. I didn't think homosexuality was right before I became a Christian. The thought of it, quite honestly, turned my stomach. I cannot tell you why some feel that the Bible does not say it is wrong. I could guess, of course. But, I don't know the real reason why some think it is ok and some don't.
I do not want to know why others think as they do.
I am asking YOU why, given that it is possible to interpret the bible differently, YOU choose to interpret it in this way.
For instance, the bible says a lot of things that you do not choose to act upon or espouse. It says you should kill adulterers and people who eat the wrong kinds of insect, and shell fish and such. I take it you do not espouse that we should kill these people?
I THINK the real answer to the question is given here, btw: "I didn't think homosexuality was right before I became a Christian. The thought of it, quite honestly, turned my stomach."
This is an honest answer.
I think you, and other bigoted people, turn to the bible etc to justify your prejudice. Prejudice is common. We all have prejudices. I simply think we ought to try to get over it, not take the oldest, least important parts of the bible to justify it.
I think there is plenty in the bible to suggest that this kind of prejudice is unchristian, and I think it is your particular prejudice which impels you to ignore these greater commandments, but hey, I am just guessing.
I'm not sure what you mean by fine Christian minds and hearts here, dlowan. Do you mean fine in the respect that they don't agree with my point of view or fine as in what? I don't know what the difference is, dlowan. I really don't. There are so many different interpretations of things, as you well know. I only know things for sure for myself.
No, fine in that they are equally wanting to do what is right in a christian way as you are, but are able to find a deeper commandment to love others and be tolerant in the bible, which outweighs the primitive dross.
I am simply wanting to open up your mind to the possibility that you can follow jesus and the bible, and NOT believe that gay people's civil rights should be denied, so that you can understand the question I am trying to get you to answer, as to why you choose a more narrow interpretation. I am interested simply to understand your reasons for choosing, and attempting to demonstrate to you that there IS a choice - something which I am not sure you have really realised before: make apparent to you that you are CHOOSING an interpretation, rather than the truth simply being what you believe.
I may not be doing a good job of that, but it is what I am trying to do!
You see, often our choices are invisible to us, since we consider them as simply what IS. I find it is often quite illuminating to realise something is a choice, which we are making on principles which may be opaque to us, but are nonetheless there, and which can be articulated.
Sorry, that was a damn sermon, almost!
dlowan, it says in the Old Testament and the New Testament that this is wrong. I am trying my best to do unto others, dlowan. C'mon, give me a bit of credit, ok? I backed off my firm stance of flat out voting no to saying I'd stay out of it because I recognized someone else's rights were involved here. Why is that not good enough? Must I change my opinion completely before I am just left to what I believe or feel?
Nobody is telling you what to believe or feel.
Challenging your beliefs is a normal part of debate and discussion.
ALL beliefs get challenged here.
If you want to be "left to what I believe or feel" you are likely going about it the wrong way by debating the issue in a forum such as this.
You keep saying you are being picked on.....some have certainly been rude to you, but you are NOT being picked on, you are being debated with.
And this is exactly why I am feeling baited, dlowan. I have made this comment to someone and it seems to have found it's way to the surface. That's fine. I made the comment. I stand by it. Yes, I believe there is a spiritual warfare going on. However, I don't know to what extent it is. And yes, I do believe that for some (and Doktor S, forgive me but you have professed yourself as a Satanist so I would have to say that you apply) there is a spiritual warfare going on. But, even if that is the case, it doesn't mean I have to be cruel or nasty to anyone because of it.
I have in private conversations said things about others in frustration or anger, yes. I won't deny that. It doesn't make it right, but I have done it. So, if there is anything else you want to ask if I think or have said or whatever, lay it out there, dlowan. I have no problem with addressing it.
I am not sure by what criteria you consider a public web site to be "private conversation".
Here is a fact.
What you write on a public website is not private conversation.
I remain interested in whether you believe you are in some sort of crusade here against the forces of evil and the devil?
This is relevant to a "christian whoppers" thread since I do not think that is how you have presented yourself here.
I am especially intrigued as to whether you believe you are on the right side in a war against we evil folk, because it does not really go well with your hurt complaints that people do not respect your opinions, does it?
Seeing us as tools of the devil is a tad suggestive that you do not have respect for our beliefs, does it not?
I don't see that as an especial problem if you are honest (most people think some watered down version of this about their ideas, but mebbe most can at least laugh at it?) though I, of course, think it daft....so it goes....
