1
   

Can You Make Me See Red?

 
 
aktorist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:13 pm
I have collected a collection of quotes of Momma Angel from this topic, and I'm starting to get confused at what Momma Angel is really trying to do.

Quote:
I understand how you feel, sozobe. I wish more had your feeling. I was speaking to those (i.e., Brandon, etc.) that continually ask for that evidence.

And that is exactly what I am goi ...


Quote:
Do some of you ever turn your brains down to idle or anything? How many times do I have to state that I was not trying to provide evidence of God or prove that God exists?

You are making this so much more complicated that it was intended to be.


Quote:
nimh,

Can you explain red to me so that I can experience it. Remember, I am colorblind.


Quote:
One more time, my intent is not to prove that God exists. My intent is to show that just as trying to make someone experience red, sight, or sound, I cannot make you experience God.

Yes, sozobe, our evidence is our experience. I was speaking of the questions in the past on some of these threads. I was hoping, really hoping that some would see that asking us to explain our experience of God is well, like explaining red, sight, or sound.

My head hurts......


Quote:
What am I going to do with you? Why do you keep trying to insist that I am tryin to prove God's existence? I am not. One more time, I am trying to point out that one cannot make another person experience God, just as one cannot make another experience the color red, see, or hear. That's it. No hidden agenda. Just that. Plain. Simple. Black and white.


Quote:
aktorist,

But those things do not make make Charlotte experience red, Sandy see, or David hear. You are still thinking on too high of a level here.

Basic experiences. Just basic experience. Passing on that experience to someone else. How do you do it?

To them (and this is the important part) THESE THINGS DO NOT EXIST and science cannot prove that they do to these three individuals (Caps for emphasis only.)




Last but not least!

Quote:
sozobe,

Ok, I thought I explained why in S&R twice but I will do it again.

Many ask for evidence of God. Well, someone's experience with God is their evidence. But, just as I cannot make you see red, hear, or see I cannot make you experience God.


Confused, are you all?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:18 pm
True (and funny) Bartikus, but let me note that, given that MA is using belief as analogous (if I understand her) with seeing, it is a long-standing realization of cultural anthropology that human perception is shaped largely (if not totally) by cultural conditioning. As such: BELIEVING IS SEEING--with apologies to the naive empiricists who stand on the principle that "seeing is believing".
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:18 pm
I think she stated what she was trying to do.

Do you think she might be up to something other than she says?

Whatever could it be?
0 Replies
 
aktorist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:22 pm
Quote:
belief as analogous (if I understand her) with seeing


You can't just believe whatever you see.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:23 pm
JLNobody wrote:
True (and funny) Bartikus, but let me note that, given that MA is using belief as analogous (if I understand her) with seeing, it is a long-standing realization of cultural anthropology that human perception is shaped largely (if not totally) by cultural conditioning. As such: BELIEVING IS SEEING--with apologies to the naive empiricists who stand on the principle that "seeing is believing".


I was going for true and funny to lighten the mood and say life is short and hope you all are doing well.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:23 pm
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?
0 Replies
 
aktorist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:27 pm
So basically it is just an argument against phenomenalism, nothing else. Experience is not evidence, and lack of experience is not lack of evidence. This should be clear and established.

So this has nothing to do with existance or evidence. Only an arguement against phenomenalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenalism

In the philosophy of perception, phenomenalism is the view that physical objects, properties, events (whatever is physical) are reducible to mental objects, properties, events. Ultimately, only mental objects, properties, events, exist. In particular, we may reduce talk of physical bodies to talk of bundles of sense-data.

The philosopher who is most famous for advocating both the bundle theory of objects, and phenomenalism, is the 18th century Irish philosopher, George Berkeley. Berkeley's version is more commonly called "subjective idealism".

Philosophers who hear the sceptic's challenge - "There's no reason to think an external world exists" - reply, "Well, no, I guess there isn't any reason to think that an external world exists. All there is, is sense-data. Physical objects are bundles of sense-data. When I hold up my hand, and I see it, I'm not seeing something external to my mind; I'm seeing a series, a whole bundle, of hand sense-data, and there is no hand apart from those hand sense-data. That's what my hand is - a bundle of sense-data." Such philosophers get around scepticism not by replying to the sceptic and proving the existence of an external world, but instead by saying that there is no external world.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:32 pm
aktorist wrote:
So basically it is just an argument against phenomenalism, nothing else. Experience is not evidence, and lack of experience is not lack of evidence. This should be clear and established.

So this has nothing to do with existance or evidence. Only an arguement against phenomenalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenalism

In the philosophy of perception, phenomenalism is the view that physical objects, properties, events (whatever is physical) are reducible to mental objects, properties, events. Ultimately, only mental objects, properties, events, exist. In particular, we may reduce talk of physical bodies to talk of bundles of sense-data.

The philosopher who is most famous for advocating both the bundle theory of objects, and phenomenalism, is the 18th century Irish philosopher, George Berkeley. Berkeley's version is more commonly called "subjective idealism".

Philosophers who hear the sceptic's challenge - "There's no reason to think an external world exists" - reply, "Well, no, I guess there isn't any reason to think that an external world exists. All there is, is sense-data. Physical objects are bundles of sense-data. When I hold up my hand, and I see it, I'm not seeing something external to my mind; I'm seeing a series, a whole bundle, of hand sense-data, and there is no hand apart from those hand sense-data. That's what my hand is - a bundle of sense-data." Such philosophers get around scepticism not by replying to the sceptic and proving the existence of an external world, but instead by saying that there is no external world.


I don't believe it as phenomenal as that may be.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:41 pm
oooooh, Bartikus, that's scary. I'm out of here.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:46 pm
JLNobody wrote:
oooooh, Bartikus, that's scary. I'm out of here.


I'm just goofing around. Sorry. I gotta stop before Momma thumps me on the head.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:50 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?


Because they wouldn't have a reason to carry on an argument otherwise. Add up anything of substance regarding the thread and then look at all the rest. Then look at who posted what. I am now seeing polka dots.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:53 pm
Should I call you dotty?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:54 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?


Because they wouldn't have a reason to carry on an argument otherwise. Add up anything of substance regarding the thread and then look at all the rest. Then look at who posted what. I am now seeing polka dots.

The implication of the post that opened this thread was that because MA can define an experience that cannot be shared, she necessarily has sufficient reason to warrant a belief that a God exists. This is logically wrong, and anyone who doesn't like to accept bad logic will tend to protest it. Debate is common on the forums and not some sort of bad behavior. When you start a thread here, people are entitled to give opinions. Do you think that they aren't? You seem to hint at a lot of things rather than just saying precisely what you mean.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:56 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?


Because they wouldn't have a reason to carry on an argument otherwise. Add up anything of substance regarding the thread and then look at all the rest. Then look at who posted what. I am now seeing polka dots.


I object on the basis that the polish do not have sole claim to any variety of dots and because everything else you said made sense and I can think of nothing else to retaliate against at this time.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:57 pm
Brandon,

I love ya' but do you ever hold a simple conversation with anyone? Do you analyze everything?


Personally, I am seeing Swiss Dots. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:59 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?


Because they wouldn't have a reason to carry on an argument otherwise. Add up anything of substance regarding the thread and then look at all the rest. Then look at who posted what. I am now seeing polka dots.

The implication of the post that opened this thread was that because MA can define an experience that cannot be shared, she necessarily has sufficient reason to warrant a belief that a God exists. This is logically wrong, and anyone who doesn't like to accept bad logic will tend to protest it. Debate is common on the forums and not some sort of bad behavior. When you start a thread here, people are entitled to give opinions. Do you think that they aren't? You seem to hint at a lot of things rather than just saying precisely what you mean.


What is it that you don't understand? I thought that I have been saying what I mean all along. The fact that you do not understand what I am saying does not mean that I am hinting. For example, you have totally misread the intent of this thread. Since it was started by Momma Angel, you have pre-conceived ideas of what you think she meant. I have not seen debate here. I have seen a twisting of the intent of the post.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:00 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Brandon,

I love ya' but do you ever hold a simple conversation with anyone? Do you analyze everything?


Personally, I am seeing Swiss Dots. :wink:


Look again I tell you they are not dots but mere holes in cheese.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:02 pm
Bartikus says to me: "I gotta stop before Momma thumps on the head."
OOOOOH, I was kidding before, but now I'm REALLY scared.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:03 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist,

You can take that last quote out of there. I was speaking of other threads, not this one. I even told sozobe that after she pointed that out to me.

C'mon, honey, catch up, will ya! I stated why I started this thread. No hidden agenda. Nothing. Why do some of you absolutely refuse to believe it is just what it is?


Because they wouldn't have a reason to carry on an argument otherwise. Add up anything of substance regarding the thread and then look at all the rest. Then look at who posted what. I am now seeing polka dots.

The implication of the post that opened this thread was that because MA can define an experience that cannot be shared, she necessarily has sufficient reason to warrant a belief that a God exists. This is logically wrong, and anyone who doesn't like to accept bad logic will tend to protest it. Debate is common on the forums and not some sort of bad behavior. When you start a thread here, people are entitled to give opinions. Do you think that they aren't? You seem to hint at a lot of things rather than just saying precisely what you mean.


What is it that you don't understand? I thought that I have been saying what I mean all along. The fact that you do not understand what I am saying does not mean that I am hinting. For example, you have totally misread the intent of this thread. Since it was started by Momma Angel, you have pre-conceived ideas of what you think she meant. I have not seen debate here. I have seen a twisting of the intent of the post.


Doing the 'twist' to polka music while eating some swiss cheese.

Ok....now I'm scared.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:11 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Bartikus says to me: "I gotta stop before Momma thumps on the head."
OOOOOH, I was kidding before, but now I'm REALLY scared.


Can you please stop staring at me with those beady eyes?
0 Replies
 
 

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