Can You Make Me See Red?

Oooh, nicely put, roger.

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Thanks soz, I was trying to think out the analogy and was becoming muddled.

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littlek,

I am not asking anyone to dumb down. That is not what I mean. I am asking everyone to drop the thought of evidence for the purpose of this thread. I am getting frustrated because so many are trying to make this so much more complicated than it is.

I am talking about simple basic experiences and trying to share that experience with others. I am not talking about proving God or proving anything.

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But, it's a very complicated issue!

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You've made it in terms of god from the opening post, Momma Angel, not to mention your choice of forums.

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Ok. I for one will concede that you can't communicate all experience through language without contextual reference.
Now what?
Where's the beef?

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Momma, I understand what you are trying to say with this thread. Unfortunately, it is not being taken in the way that you intended. Are you surprised?

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Quote:

Personally, I'm not interested in making people who are religious provide proof of god -- it's kind of pointless to me, especially if they acknowledge that it's a simple matter of faith, proof doesn't enter into it.

Truth doesn't enter into it either. Because truth is not faith.

Quote:

I am talking about simple basic experiences and trying to share that experience with others. I am not talking about proving God or proving anything.

You can't, unless you give some permanent evidence.
That's how TRUTH works.

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sozobe Wrote:

Quote:

Oh, hi.

I appreciate that it's a foray into metaphorical thinking for Momma Angel, it has some potential, but ultimately doesn't work. As Doktor S. says, if we are talking about some objective reality that can or can not be perceived by individuals, there are other ways to measure that objective reality.

Personally, I'm not interested in making people who are religious provide proof of god -- it's kind of pointless to me, especially if they acknowledge that it's a simple matter of faith, proof doesn't enter into it.

I dislike the obvious point of the analogy that people who don't believe in god are blind/ deaf/ colorblind -- what does that make people who don't believe in unicorns?

But whatever. <shrug>

sozobe,

Still thinking on too high a level for me here, girl. Yes, to me and others there is evidence of the color red, sight, and sound. But to these three people there just isn't any way to prove evidence to them. So, in order to make them understand red, sight, and sound, one would have to explain it to them. I don't think it can be done.

And as to the obvious analogy I promise you, that thought never crossed my mind. I just thought of three things that I didn't feel anyone could explain to another person.

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I didn't say truth was faith. Faith is not inherently invalid. I am not personally a Christian, but there are things that I have an element of faith in even though I know there is no objective truth to them -- I've mentioned karma before. I have a certain faith that if someone acts badly, it'll bite 'em in the butt eventually, but I recognize that it's just faith and nothing particularly fact-based.

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Quote:

So, in order to make them understand red, sight, and sound, one would have to explain it to them. I don't think it can be done.

Not al all. I have worked with many Deaf people to whom all of this has been explained. They understand and believe that these things exist. They don't think sound doesn't exist because they can't personally experience it.

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Doktor S,

Thank you!

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Sozobe,

Yes, I understand that. But you cannot make them experience sound. That is what I am getting at. You can explain it but you can't make someone actually experience it.

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(But then where IS the beef, sweetie? ;-))

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Momma Angel wrote:

Doktor S,

Thank you!

Well if all you were after was that one point, you can have it. You're welcome Smile

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The response above was after your response to Doktor S., but it goes for your latest response too... so? Relevance?

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Sozobe,

The beef is so many ask why can't we give evidence of God or why can't we explain God from our viewpoint. It's just like trying to make someone experience red, sight, or sound. It cannot be done. Many times we have been accused of dodging the issue or being afraid to answer the questions.

We aren't. We just can't make you experience what we have experienced no matter how hard we try or want to. I was just hoping if everyone realized that BASIC point, it might make it a bit easier on all of us.

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This is only your victory against phenomenalism, angel, nothing else.
Thank you for point out the obvious.

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Faith is not inherently invalid. I am not personally a Christian, but there are things that I have an element of faith in even though I know there is no objective truth to them -- I've mentioned karma before. I have a certain faith that if someone acts badly, it'll bite 'em in the butt eventually, but I recognize that it's just faith and nothing particularly fact-based.

It isn't? Anyone could believe anything they want? They can believe that their live is just a conspiracy staged by everyone else, and to them, that's true?

Faith has no correlation with reality. And faith is invalid. "I believe in C" does not imply that C is true.

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I, for one, don't doubt what you experience, momma. But, your experience does not equate to evidence.

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Quote:

The beef is so many ask why can't we give evidence of God or why can't we explain God from our viewpoint. It's just like trying to make someone experience red, sight, or sound. It cannot be done. Many times we have been accused of dodging the issue or being afraid to answer the questions.

We aren't. We just can't make you experience what we have experienced no matter how hard we try or want to. I was just hoping if everyone realized that BASIC point, it might make it a bit easier on all of us.

Where is the manifestation of God?
God makes no manifestations, whereas color and sound does.
Simple.

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Can You Make Me See Red?

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